Kendra Ross: [00:00:00] The views shared in this episode represent Kelli and Kendra, not our mama, our partners, our church, job, or sponsors.

Kelli King-Jackson: Hi y'all. This is Kelli King Jackson and Kendra Ross, and welcome to the first episode of our podcast, This Woman is Worth. We're glad that you're here.

Kelli King-Jackson: We bring the perspective of two Gen Xers and former church girls who woke up one day and realized that life was bigger than what Big Mama and the Bible say. We're lucky that as we started exploring our identities as Black women, we had each other. 

Kendra Ross: This podcast is us inviting you into our group chat where we talk about faith, family, community, politics, and pop culture.

Kendra Ross: We don't believe in leaving any [00:01:00] Black women behind. So come on in.

Kelli King-Jackson: So, Kendra, I was thinking that we should catch people up on the group chat and how it started. So, for those of you who've never been introduced to us before, we are friends from undergrad. We met 30 years ago when we attended New York University. 

Kendra Ross: We are sisters at this point, but yes, we started out as roommate friends and roommates at NYU and Weinstein Hall in the 90s in, in, in the golden era of hip hop and all the good and bad that comes with that.

Kendra Ross: And yeah, 30 years later, here we are still in the group chat. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. And over the years, our Other friends have become friends. And so we have formed various group chats, but a main group chat that folks dip in and out of, as we talk about things related to our faith, our [00:02:00] family, our community, and politics.

Kelli King-Jackson: So. We wanted to invite y'all into the conversations that we have as Gen Xers who are Black women who are recovering church girls, as I call it, and who are active in our community and committed to culture that is I think socially responsible and engaged. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah. And we're going to bring all the complexities that come with that, you know, not just our our new views on our religious upbringing or where we went to college, but being Black middle class and the Black tax and being educated and being in these kind of like privileged spaces, but also always feeling kind of marginalized and oppressed and what we do to navigate that and how we help others do that as well in our work.

Kendra Ross: So there is. So many layers to what it, what it's like to be in conversation with me and Kelli. And a lot of times if you are not either immediately adjacent to our village or you know, come up, if you didn't come up [00:03:00] with us for the past 30 years, it could be a little overwhelming. So hopefully this is an opportunity for some people who actually do notice to decode what it's like to be in the group chat with Kelli and Kendra.

Kendra Ross: So this should be a lot of fun. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yes. And we're both. a little quirky and socially awkward. So we work in very extroverted careers. But I don't think either of us would identify that way. So it's also really fascinating that we're doing a podcast. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah, truly. And you know, one thing I'm excited about with this podcast is learning even more about myself and Kelli.

Kendra Ross: Cause 30 years, For a large portion of that, at least in my, you know, teens and early twenties, I lived with Kelli. So like I saw Kelli through pain of surgeries. I saw Kelli through grief. I've seen Kelli through trying to navigate working full time and going to college recovering from being a person who went to, to boarding school, which is a whole different world that I knew nothing about until I really knew kept met Kelli.

Kendra Ross: So I hope that not only, Even though we know each other really well, and we've seen each other at [00:04:00] our highest highs and lowest lows, that this will give us an opportunity to even go deeper with that, to learn more about ourselves and each other and what makes us tick and where we are now. Cause although we've been friends all these years, we haven't lived in the same city in over 20 years.

Kendra Ross: And we also have one of those friendships that like we text all the time, we're in the group chat all the time, but we may talk on the phone a couple of times a month. You know, it's not like we talk every day. And so I think we'll probably talk more on this podcast than we do in real life. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. Life, life has been life and, and not living in the same city, same time zone.

Kelli King-Jackson: We have families and community. So. What friendship looks like for women of our age and how it has to ebb and flow to be responsive to The realities of life. I think it's also Some of what we will share. As y'all follow us on this journey 

Kendra Ross: Absolutely. So before we get into like a topic topic 

Speaker: So 

Kendra Ross: Is there something about where you are [00:05:00] right now, Kelli, with you, your family, where you live, your state?

Kendra Ross: Because that's the other thing, you live in the South, I live in the Northeast ish, Midwest ish. So is there something going on about where you are, where your family is, where your state is, where the country is, that you want to share before we get into like something a little broader? 

Kelli King-Jackson: I mean, it's interesting being, I'm using air quotes y'all, air quote progressive, who lives in the South and who loves living in the South.

Kelli King-Jackson: So that is always a juicy. you know, topic. At the time of this recording, we are just coming out of a hurricane. And so, I'm just thinking a lot about what it is to be Black in the South and all the, the layers that come with that. As I try to live out my, my faith and my politics. In real time.

Kelli King-Jackson: So that's definitely top of mind for me today. 

Kendra Ross: And you know, I love that we're talking about this because actually Kelli, not originally being from the South, what her peoples are, you know, that's what Black people say, well, her [00:06:00]people from the South even though Kelli didn't grow up in the South since she's been in the South for quite a while now, she is a a diehard Southerner in a sense that like, she doesn't let people talk about the South.

Kendra Ross: She doesn't let people talk about her state. And yeah, I, my perceptions of the South have changed a lot as a result of my relationship to Kelli. Like, not that I ever had like a negative perception of the South, cause again, my peoples are from the South too, Alabama on my mama's side, Georgia on my daddy's side.

Kendra Ross: But I definitely feel like I was one of those people that like, Ooh, I can never live in that state because their politics are this, or their politics are that. And then like just watching Kelli and her family live out their lives. in the state that they live in and in the South has been very eye opening for me.

Kendra Ross: And then just my politics, my political education, actually, and my viewpoint on like the place of the South and Black life has just grown and changed and morphed because, you know, a lot of times we like to think in these binaries of like [00:07:00] South racist, North not racist. Well, we know better now, but there, there are some people that think that way or, Oh, I want to go to South.

Kendra Ross: There's racist down there or South red and where we are blue state and all these like kind of. It's all lies. 

Kelli King-Jackson: It's all lies. It's 

Kendra Ross: all lies. And also it's way more complicated than that. One thing, you know, talking to Kelli and her peoples and see, first of all, Black folks is doing really well in the South compared to what I see.

Kendra Ross: I live in a, I live in Pittsburgh, PA, which I don't, you know, I'm very unapologetic about. I grew up here. Our population within the city is probably 23 ish percent Black. And we don't really have a Black middle class per se. Like we have Black middle class people, but there is no like Black middle class that people can locate at the level that you can if you're in Atlanta or another kind of big city.

Kendra Ross: And either even cities that have less of a Black population or not less of a smaller Black population. So that's been eyeopening to me is that like, okay, we might talk red state, blue state, but for some reason I find at least in the cities of the, of the [00:08:00] South, Black people are doing better. You know, not to say there aren't complications with that.

Kendra Ross: There are disparities and things, right? 

Kelli King-Jackson: Absolutely. 

Kendra Ross: The other thing, and then I'll shut up about the South, is listening to one of my favorite-- 

Kelli King-Jackson: I like you repping the South. 

Kendra Ross: I ain't repping. I'm just, you know, I'm just saying one of my favorite thinkers, Robin D. G. Kelli, whose book Freedom Dreams I took inspiration from for my dissertation, plug, plug.

Kendra Ross: He was in a recent interview in the last year or two, and someone asked him about the South. And he said, the South is the most radical place, right? That, that, that, that, And the fact, the reason why the governments in the states are so oppressive is because there's something to oppress against. That there's, not only is there a Black radical tradition in the South, that radical tradition remains today.

Kendra Ross: And the only reason why it has to be so oppressive is because that radical tradition exists. And if you're not pushing back against something, what are they fighting? You know what I mean? So that, that opened up my eyes, like, Maybe the political establishment in our states and our cities up here don't feel the need to push as hard as down south because not to say there's not a [00:09:00] radical movement here, but it's, there's nothing like, you know, what was established in the south back then.

Kendra Ross: And it still persists. So yes, I went a long way to say that, like Kelli, my relationship to Kelli since she's been down there and been married and been a mom and just how her life has changed in the south has really opened my eyes. So like the place of the south and Black life. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I love it. I mean, I feel very strongly that this is a moment of return for Black folks.

Kelli King-Jackson: Most of our families left the South because of racial terror and opportunity, but racial terror, right? Like if we could have had the opportunities in our communities, why would we leave, you know? And I think that a lot of us fled and never ever wanted to return. And we lost a lot of talent and we lost a lot of wealth.

Kelli King-Jackson: And sadly, we lost a lot of land, and so, I think that watching Black folks move back to the South and be able to financially afford to, to [00:10:00] live and provide for their families has been a real thing, and folks who graduated high school here can't always say the same, right? So there are a lot of layers and complexities about our migration back.

Kelli King-Jackson: But I do believe it's a, it's a time of return. I think it's necessary for our healing as Black folks. And so, you know, I'm excited to talk a little bit about the genealogy and the return journey through the podcast. Cause I think that it's something that A lot of Black folks are curious about, even if it's not their personal path.

Kelli King-Jackson: So, yeah. 

Kendra Ross: Absolutely. I've, you know, I'm not the homesteader, like gardeny girl, but I've been watching a lot of like homesteading YouTube videos and like, kind of like dreaming. And even though I'm not sure that I will move or have a Property in the South that may change. I do. I am starting to think about what it would be like to have more land here.

Kendra Ross: Even if I moved a little further out, unfortunately, a lot of the places where that exists are the scariest places around here, but [00:11:00] that's neither here nor there. But having more land not just to cultivate the land and to grow my own food, but also have land so that like. There, there is no such thing as a family member of mine being houseless, right?

Kendra Ross: Like, if we got to build a little cabin in the corner where people can temporarily stay and I like the idea of kind of having a compound and more and more. And then not just like blood family, but that could be friends. It could be, you know, shared support and raising families and raising grandchildren and great nieces and grandnieces and things like that.

Kendra Ross: So there are things about Southern ways of life that The older I get, I'm more inspired by it. Like I was big city, Brooklyn girl, and I still love Brooklyn and New York. I spent 21 plus years there, but you know, since I've gotten older and I've been living a little quieter, cause I live kind of like a suburban city life now having land, having peace.

Kendra Ross: Being able to share that and also being able to like, even though I don't have any like birth children of my own, I have children in my life being able to hopefully leave something to them and that they'll always be able to [00:12:00] say that's ours. Cause I have plenty of family members who have said, Oh yeah, we had some land donated to us in Georgia, but I don't even know what's going on with that.

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. 

Kendra Ross: Like. Like, what you mean? Like, find out and especially seeing our good friend Eternal Polk's film. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yes. Gaining Ground. Yes,

Kendra Ross: Gaining Ground-- is it? Okay. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Gaining Ground. Every Black family should watch it. 

Kendra Ross: Every Black family should watch it. And even though he's not a Black woman, we shouldn't have Eternal on here to talk about it.

Kelli King-Jackson: I would love it. 

Kendra Ross: I think it's important as we think about, to your earlier point, the genealogy of our families and, you know, Black wealth, Black brilliance, like so much that has been lost and taken from us and how we can kind of help take that back by knowing the law, by knowing the truth and all that kind of stuff.

Kendra Ross: So anyway. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I'm excited. 

Kendra Ross: Me too. 

Kelli King-Jackson: So what's been popping in the group chat this week? We've been sending some things back and forth. 

Kendra Ross: Woo. One of the things that really struck me, you know, since so much of why we started this podcast is rooted in our faith [00:13:00] and in our, our, our faith.

Kendra Ross: Are ever evolving women is theology, theology and theological perspective. You know, we follow a lot of the other girls, millennials and, and and Gen Xers and others, including some Gen Zers who are questioning and disrupting and deconstructing their faith. And saying, Hey, I'm still a person of faith.

Kendra Ross: I still believe in certain fundamental aspects of the faith I was raised in. But the, but is important, but some, you know, some things just, you know, need, we need to deconstruct and I'm not going to just tell the line anymore. And so one of those accounts is the unfit Christian. And just like every other kind of person out there, like, I don't agree with everything the person puts out, but what resonates with me resonates with me.

Kendra Ross: And I never feel like anything is coming from a malicious or bad place. And it's, I, I think the system is brave for having these kinds of moments in public, you know, figuring out who you are, what your faith practice is and, and who you are in the world, what the world is to you, [00:14:00]your worldview in public is a very hard thing to do because people don't have things to say.

Kendra Ross: And I. I have not done that to date. I think some of that will happen here. So I really appreciate the un Christian, the unfit Christian. And so this week they posted I forgot her name. I apologize. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Danielle. Danielle Thomas. 

Kendra Ross: Danielle Thomas. Thank you. Danielle posted a story that really hit home for me about Us and our low self esteem and how it comes from our family and from our church.

Kendra Ross: Yeah, not necessarily maliciously, not like no one was trying to necessarily hurt us. Sometimes we think it's for our own good, but the way we were socialized in our families and our church and how it really caused low self esteem and how many of us are trying to climb our way out of it. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sending the clip because I definitely resonated with it.

Kendra Ross: Yeah, it resonated with me personally, but also like with other members of my family and friend groups of people who, who are even to this day, you know, not in a judgmental way, but like, really think that certain experiences are not for them. A, because they haven't [00:15:00] had them, and B, because they don't, they just don't believe that like, You're, they're supposed to desire things and and, and, and that really hit me.

Kendra Ross: Like they've been taught to desire more is like a sin and you know, like desire, 

Kelli King-Jackson: Paul, you're not content. 

Kendra Ross: Hello? Like desiring to travel, desiring to be part or not be part of them, have a new partner to get rid of a partner, desiring to speak up for themselves, desiring to want more money, desiring to have a better job, desiring to have a better friend group, desire more, not only desiring more, but expecting more that expectation piece.

Kendra Ross: And I think if you have low self esteem, you think, or, or, and I mentioned this before in our conversations in group chat, something that really drives me nuts is this concept of Godly Proud. 

Kelli King-Jackson: When someone can't, when someone said I'm Godly Proud of themself. Yeah. 

Kendra Ross: And so I think all that ties into that low self confidence piece.

Kendra Ross: And so that really hit home. I, I really wish we can, and I'm hoping we can have the [00:16:00] opportunity to talk to Daniel at some point about that. I, I remember having conversations with family members about Not even just family members, people at school. Like I was raised dancing. And so I used to walk with my chest open like this and my head up high.

Kendra Ross: And I remember somebody saying to me, like, be careful. You don't want people thinking you're stuck up. And I'm like, first of all, first of all, I'm a dancer. So I'm carrying myself the way I'm being taught in ballet. And second of all, what would. What society possess, what does it possess society to look at it?

Kendra Ross: Probably I was probably 13, 14 years old for them to tell me your head, you're holding your head up too high. Can you imagine, can you imagine? And so I think back where I've had those, I've had those moments where somebody, I don't even think maliciously have tried to chop me down the side because I decided to carry my head up high, my shoulders back, you know, be, be, Even if I wasn't really feeling confident, carry myself as I was confident.

Kendra Ross: Cause sometimes you have to just, you know, fake it till you make it. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Mhmm. 

Kendra Ross: And to [00:17:00] have people say, you know, you don't, you don't want people to think you're stuck up. I remember one, a woman at my church in Brooklyn commented because I remember when they first did the checks where you could put your picture on them.

Kendra Ross: And I was like, Oh, cool. So they're going to know it's me. So nobody's going to like steal my checks. That's what I'm thinking about it. And this woman at church said to me, she's like, Oh, she's like, well, you must be really vain to want your face on your checks. And I'm like, is that where you go? 

Kelli King-Jackson: That's where they go.

Kendra Ross: And you critiquing my tithe check, where we, where they do that at anyway. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I mean, I'm, I'm really thinking about like, when I went to, started telling people I was going to boarding school and what they said to me was, Oh, you're going to become white. And what they meant was that, or what I interpret that they meant was that I was going to be, think I was different or better than the folks who didn't have that opportunity.

Kelli King-Jackson: And so, yeah, I think the messages that [00:18:00] people send and this goes back to the South, right? Like we're not supposed to draw too much attention to ourselves. We're not supposed to be braggadocious about things. And so I think. It has made us often, particularly as Black women, not confident, right? I see it in my coaching practice all the time.

Kelli King-Jackson: People who dim their lights, they don't want to make other people uncomfortable by their ideas and the things that they want to contribute to the work that they do. And it's really caused a lot of harm because where we could be. Is exponentially further if we didn't have this kind of negative self talk that was given to us quite honestly, often to keep us safe.

Kelli King-Jackson: Right. And I think when we, when we lead out of fear, we can't lead in fullness. And I know that's something I'm, this is like my whatever 55th round of therapy, but this round of therapy, you know, I said, I want to focus on These feelings [00:19:00] of like, I'm not worthy. Right. And that is a very biblical, biblical term.

Kelli King-Jackson: Like, am I, you know, getting out of that mindset because I feel like it holds me back from all the things I could be doing in my business. So yeah, I really appreciate Daniel bringing it up. And to also say like, our families didn't do it on purpose. But it still caused harm and we have to be able to name that and be able to move forward from it.

Kendra Ross: So yes, I'm taking, you know, I had to take a note for the takeaways. And one of my takeaways today is when we lead out of fear, we don't lead in fullness. That's so real. And the piece about a lot of times they did it to keep us safe, I think that's absolutely true because they were like, I think there was a film or something I saw where they like, the mother admitted that they were chopping the child down to size because if she didn't do it, the world would do it and it would be worse.

Kendra Ross: And I was like, Ooh, the compromises and the choices that [00:20:00] we have to make as Black parents is just, it's just wild. But also to your last point, we have to be honest about how, even with the best intentions in a house full of love, we have to name that pain and we have to like, let go of the shame of it to say like, yeah, mom or your dad or your grandma or your auntie or your uncle, you kind of messed me up.

Kendra Ross: But I love you and I forgive you through it because I know you did the best you could with what you had, but we have to work through it so that we don't continue this pro this pattern. That's a conversation I think is, is sorely missing our community to say that, like let's stop trying to push through past the shame and wait till folks pass away to start talking about it.

Kendra Ross: And let's like really address it and name the pain. Name the pain is another takeaway. Name the pain. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Listen, and I get it differently as a parent, right? Like you just need to have a therapy fund. Cause we, we do the best we can, but. As the world evolves, it evolves, you know, in front of us, like we're living in real time, but the world is evolving and changing.

Kelli King-Jackson: And so there are things that were okay [00:21:00] for me that are not okay for my children. And they come back and they let you know, 

Kendra Ross: Indeed they do. 

Kelli King-Jackson: And it, and it hurts, but you got, you gotta eat it. Yeah, I just had the opportunity to take my mom and her sisters back to the town they were born in. And raised in, in Louisiana before they moved north.

Kelli King-Jackson: And it was fascinating watching 70 year old women relive childhood stuff. And to say like, I can't judge what their experience was. I don't know what it's like to live in the segregated South. I live in a very different South than they lived in. Right. I don't also live in a small rural community. I live in a, in a large city.

Kelli King-Jackson: So there's just so much complexity that we as Black women have experienced. on this continent that we just have to have grace with each other. Because we could be so judgmental. And I think that that is largely learned through our faith tradition. 

Kendra Ross: Absolutely. It's interesting. You said that, I know this is randomly kind of off topic, [00:22:00] but related.

Kendra Ross: I was watching, so you, as you know, my grandmother who made it to 100 years old, God rest her soul, just recently passed away in June of June of this year. And at the service. My grandmother was well loved, very popular. And even though she was a hundred years old, it wasn't like the room was empty and people forgot her.

Kendra Ross: It was, the church was packed and my aunt and, but actually my aunt, both my aunts and my mother were in the front of the church greeting folks. And my uncle was there. He's the pastor. So he was running around and my, my oldest aunt now really is the matriarch of our family. So I was, it was, it was interesting to watch as she stood at the front of the church.

Kendra Ross: Her literally transform into the matriarch, you know, her, her grandson standing by her to protect her to make sure people weren't, you know, weren't taking too much of her time. And, you know, my, my mom, who's the next next in line in terms of age being there. And then their younger sister, who's just just shy of 60 there.

Kendra Ross: But really Watching the face, the faces they [00:23:00] made when different people walked up and I could, I was like, Ooh, so many stories are being told in these faces of like who this person was in their lives probably 50 years ago, you know, but one part that was really interesting is even though it was this like somber moment of like, you know, reflection about my, and my grandmother's, you know, homecoming celebration, there was an Italian man who used to live next door to them when they grew up.

Kendra Ross: Who they hadn't seen in like 50 years who showed up for my grandmother's funeral. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Oh wow. 

Kendra Ross: And when I tell you, they turned into a bunch of kids, they were up, they were in front of the church, like in front of the casket laughing and joking. Cause it's like their childhood just kind of like flashed before their eyes.

Kendra Ross: And my aunt was like, Oh, the guy was like, somebody take our picture. We, who, who knows when this is going to happen again. So like, people are trying to like greet them and hug them and cry. And they are taking pictures with this man. And it was just, you know, it was a lighthearted moment that I thought was just really beautiful that even in the midst of this sadness, that like, first of all, that this man who was like, I haven't lived near you all.

Kendra Ross: Like my grandparents moved, you know. Almost 30 years ago. So he hadn't [00:24:00]even lived anywhere near them and his family had been moved from that area. But that when he found out that Mrs. Simon passed away, he showed up at the church and they had that moment at the it was at the viewing right before the the service.

Kendra Ross: It was just really beautiful to see that and just to see like You know, my, my mom and my aunt are in their seventies. And to see them have that moment and just all the storytelling that went on in the faces right in front of the church, which is very, very, very interesting. And to know that my aunt and my mom are now really the matriarchs of the family is, is, is wild to think about.

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. Oh man. My grandmother will be 95 in August of 2024. And I'm trying to imagine her like in her twenties in Louisiana. With seven children living in this rural town, trying to get these girls to church. So I was able to take my mom and her sister to their childhood church. And the one who left when my baby aunts are twins, they, they not babies y'all, but my baby aunts [00:25:00] are twins and they were three and a half when they left the South.

Kelli King-Jackson: And so, the church that we visited was really small. We were half the attendees, pretty much. It was about seven of us in there. And there was a guy in the back who felt so ancestral with his energy. It was fascinating, but he was in the back and he had a guitar. And he had a tambourine and a mic.

Kelli King-Jackson: There was no piano. But he kept the beat and he was singing the song. But before we were gonna dip out, he said don't, don't come and take your gifts with you. 

Kendra Ross: I know that's right. Jimmy Blue Band. Whatever his name is. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I was like, what? And I was just thinking like, he's giving his all. Right? There are many people who be like, why do y'all still have a church?

Kelli King-Jackson: It's seven of y'all, right? You don't have a pianist. You don't have an organ. You don't have nobody on the drums. And he's like, listen, I'm here to worship and you not going to come up in my church and not leave something behind. [00:26:00] So my aunt got up and. It was such childlike energy. Like she hopped up, like she was a little kid again and got on that mic, baby.

Kelli King-Jackson: I was like, we sing a solo. Oh, what'd she say? Jesus is real to me, real, real Jesus. 

Kendra Ross: I know that's right. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I mean, she, she went in, look, and she took it around a few times. I was like, ma'am. So they started stopping, getting to stopping their feet and things? Everybody started singing, even the little boys. We saw when their mama dropped them off.

Kelli King-Jackson: They were not happy they had to serve in church today. But it was very precious, right? So I do think that these moments of, The childlike wonder and joy, like we need more of that, right? We don't need to live in the shame and the darkness all the time, but that lightness I think there's an invitation for us right now.

Kendra Ross: Absolutely. And oddly enough, even though we went around the corner and [00:27:00]back, I think it definitely ties back to Danielle's posts about how do we, you know, free ourselves of this idea that like, we have to be lowly. Yeah, that like we we we deserve and have the right to not only be free but still free ourselves and our our elder sisters who are still here like i'm like I love to see actually my aunt the older she gets I feel like she is freeing herself more because she's like look I didn't seen it.

Kendra Ross: I didn't I raised my kids helped with my grandkids. I took care of my mother to her last breath And I, and I see something, and I, and I'm, my prayer, if I have any prayer is from my mom and from my aunties and my mom and my aunties friends and peer groups to take this moment to free themselves while they're still here, that they can be 70 plus and life can, they can pursue that life that they've always wanted.

Kendra Ross: It may not look and feel like, like, you know what it would've been like if they were 20, but like, free yourself. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Free yourself. Let's free ourselves. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yes. 

Kendra Ross: And let's, let's make. [00:28:00] Our spiritual connection and practice, one of liberty and freedom and not one of, of restriction and, you know, the heavyweight of patriarchy, which is a whole nother story.

Kendra Ross: The heavyweight of, you know, of duty, right? Yeah. With so much, so much as even, yeah, I'll, I'll get into that another time, but just the duty piece is just something that sits heavy on my heart. Cause my partner had the nerve to say, I was listening to the eulogy that your uncle was doing for your grandmother.

Kendra Ross: And Yeah, did. Were you listening to what he was saying about her life? I said, yeah, and I respect my grandma and I love my grandmother. I said, but that's not my story. . That is her story. 

Kelli King-Jackson: We have a different Holy Ghost. We have a different Holy Ghost . 

Kendra Ross: Her story is not my story. 

Kelli King-Jackson: It is not..

Kendra Ross: And I'll leave it at that.

Kendra Ross: I'll leave it at that. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. Your grandmother and my grandmother both were preacher's wives in Youngstown. I, I, I, I'm gonna find That's still crazy to me. That they knew each other. 

Kendra Ross: [00:29:00] That's still crazy to me. Like, when you told me that, like, and you know what? We need to connect with my uncle on that because.

Kendra Ross: We do. There's probably, first of all, my grandfather was his own kind of 

Speaker: Historian. And 

Kendra Ross: there's so many papers and books and stuff that will now have to be gone through in that basement and that, that, that, that home office like literally in real time right now that like, send me the information again about what the name was.

Kendra Ross: Cause my uncle might be like, Oh yeah, that's such and such. And my aunt, actually my aunt Janet will probably remember more than anybody because she's older and you know, she came up, she was playing in the church, you know, as a teenager. So she, you know, she knows people from the sixties. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah to catch the podcast listeners up, when my paternal grandmother's father left the South, they were in Mississippi, they moved north to Youngstown, Ohio, which is where Kendra's family migrated.

Kelli King-Jackson: So, the likelihood that her grandfather [00:30:00] and, or her, you know, her family and my family knew each other is very high. In such a small community. So the universe does nothing on accident. I have learned 

Kendra Ross: at all. And it's just, I mean, Youngstown of all places, it's not like it's, you know, Memphis, it's a city that people are well aware of.

Kendra Ross: Youngstown, Ohio is a very niche place. It has a very, It has a lot of history, the history of the labor movement, history of like civil rights, history of so much. And my grandfather and my great grandfather, who was a preacher before him, are deeply rooted in that history. My great grandfather also, he was in Youngstown, he had a church in Philly, you know, there's a whole story.

Kendra Ross: But yeah, I'd love to find out. We might be cousins, child. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Ooh, child. That is gonna be so much fun. 

Kendra Ross: Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. 

Leatra Tate: As your producer, I'm just gonna hop in here and say this is a whole podcast episode right here. Unpacking the potential genealogical connections. Yes! [00:31:00] All of that. That's amazing.

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. 

Speaker 5: Prod. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah.

Kelli King-Jackson: So let's see what else was in our group chat. I think the other thing has been around election. So at the time of this recording, it is queuing up to the November election season of 2024. And We just had an abysmal, I guess that's the word debate and subsequent cleanup session that made it all worse.

Kelli King-Jackson: With the candidate, which is president president Biden. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. The mood is so low. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah. And then to, to, to add insult to injury is that in this particular moment, someone took it upon themselves to, from what we know at this particular moment, to attempt to assassinate former president Trump [00:32:00] at a rally, literally 30 minutes from my house.

Kendra Ross: And the supposed suspect is from. literally 15 minutes from our house. So that tells you about where I live and where we are situated in political history. And I think there's so many things dangerous about this moment, but what's really dangerous about this moment is that we don't keep the main thing, the main thing in that light.

Kendra Ross: We try to really go down this line of binaries about like, yes, we realize these are two old white men, but we're not going to pretend like, let's, let's, let's put Trump aside for a second. We're going to, we're not going to pretend like. The only reason why Biden is an issue is because he's an old white man, or the only reason why he's a potential candidate, like he's an old white man, like, there's just, there's so many, there's so much binary thinking about like, young, old, Black, white, rich, poor, North, South, that in moments like this that are so politically volatile, [00:33:00] it's not just like, negligent or ignorant is dangerous and downright violent to think that way and not to really go into the nuances of these folks and like, and to be able to say, yes, I have issues with this person.

Kendra Ross: Yes. This, that, yes. This is an issue. Yes. I understand why the young people feel this way. Yes. There's, and I still know what I need to do. You know what I'm saying? And like, the difference between like, what my, how my heart is compelled and what the walking that my feet are going to do and not being willing to have those honor conversations instead of just like operating out of shame and fear and all these, these emotions and feelings that don't really serve us in moments like this.

Kendra Ross: And that like, when do we take it upon ourselves to learn from others, other places? And like, listen, no places, no place is ideal or perfect to me at this point. Like I need to be in Mars. If I want, if I want what I really think envisioned for the world. But with that being said, you know, I, I'm a little concerned by like the way, the approach, the way people are talking about this stuff.

Kendra Ross: But Kelli, I really want [00:34:00] to, you know, get your like high level take on that. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I mean, I don't want to be ageist. I, and I don't think he is fit to be president, like health wise. Right. Like, I feel like it is, you know, Having 45 to be the president is dangerous because he's a psychopath, but having Biden be the president when he is, doesn't seem like he is physically well enough to do the job is concerning, but it's more concerning that I don't believe anyone would vote for a Black woman.

Kelli King-Jackson: So what are our options, right? And so it's like, my vote is a vote against 45 being the next president, but it's not for Joe Biden being my president. And that just feels very icky [00:35:00]that we live in such a binary world that the establishment would not even allow for another possibility. Because you mean to tell me in this here United States of America, there's nobody else qualified to run for president?

Kelli King-Jackson: Like, What are we producing in our leadership if nobody else in the world is qualified? And why are we still using the same definitions of qualification? Right, like who, who, who gives the endorsement for qualification? But we've got, we're going to have to stop learning how to, allowing ourselves to be put into the binary because otherwise we just keep getting a bunch of bad choices.

Kendra Ross: No, I appreciate what you just said and, and, and you actually just kind of really went deeper with my point in a sense that like, yes, Joe Biden is of a, of a certain age and as, as, as, as auntie Maxine pointed out, so is she, she's older than him. So he's not an issue because he's older. [00:36:00]Him being older is probably.

Kendra Ross: Exasperated his health issues, obviously. And his health issues make him unfit because he can't operate optimally. And so just the way that you took the time to unpack that in a way that didn't just say, he old, get him out of here. Cause like that, that's not, that's not gonna work for us either. 

Kelli King-Jackson: No, it's not.

Kelli King-Jackson: And I'll say this about Auntie Maxine, which I said about Diane Feinstein, which I say about most baby boomers. They do not know how to mentor and step aside. Okay. Right? Not step aside because you have no value, but step aside because you've invested in future leadership and you trust that they can carry the baton, right?

Kelli King-Jackson: Like, so many of them will not retire. And what it does is it crowds the Gen Xers and there is no pathway for future leadership. Right. The difference between us and what I see in millennials is a millennial is going to tap out. What they're going to be is like, you know what? I don't need, I don't need this.

Kelli King-Jackson: [00:37:00] You don't want me to run for office. Cool. I'm going to go work at Amazon and travel around the world and use my work from home privileges to be in Tulum and in Lisbon and all over the place. Right. I don't, I don't have to stay and just participate in the malarkey. Whereas we were socialized by baby boomers into everything right into, into work, into church, into politics, right?

Kelli King-Jackson: And so there's a way of being that we had this duty, right? And this, these, this following the protocol and all these things that we were taught. And so then we, we tap out, we tap out at senior director, we tap out at VP. Because the CEO gonna stay there for 20, 28 years. 

Kendra Ross: Kelli, 

Kelli King-Jackson: I

Kendra Ross: had to get distorted on that one.

Kendra Ross: Kelli, can you hear me? 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah, I hear you girl. 

Kendra Ross: You preaching because literally, first of all, I think we should like I literally stopped this right here because this is a whole episode on its own about succession planning. This is [00:38:00] my biggest platform in Pittsburgh where I live, where yes, I am a Gen X leader who is watching people who are holding on for dear life to power.

Kendra Ross: And at the same time, while I do believe that succession planning and mentorship is, is really necessary. And I feel like Gen X has been done a disservice. And that word duty came back up, right? Because we didn't push hard enough. I don't like the energy of folks saying, because I remember getting into it briefly with a young woman who was a political activist, a millennial, about before he passed away, John Lewis, and her saying, they just need to go away.

Kendra Ross: And I'm like, well, hold up. Yes, and there's a way it has to be done. Yeah. If the next person's not prepared, if they're not mentored, they're not mentored. If they can't help them build political power and clout, it's not, it's actually not going to serve as well, right? It's like, part of the reason why they are asked, some of them decide on their own, but why they're asked to [00:39:00] hold on is because the longer they've been in, the more power they have in those spaces, right?

Kendra Ross: Hakeem Jeffries is one of the few that came out of that, out of my generation, that like, they've, you know, Pour enough into him to make sure he amassed a certain amount of power. Yeah. Whether you like what he's done with it or not. So, on one side I'm like, yes, we gotta get better succession planning and mentorship.

Kendra Ross: But it's a systemic issue. It's not just Maxine Waters or this one or that one. Yeah. There needs to be create a culture in the political system where that's normalized, so that there's These folks are like given the tools they need in order to succeed. Otherwise you're giving up a senior position for someone who's a junior.

Kendra Ross: And unless they associate themselves with the cliques and the squad and this and that, they're going to get lost in the sauce. And so I think, yes, succession planning needs to be happened, but it needs to be a larger, the same way these young people have put these packs together to get people in office.

Kendra Ross: Somebody needs to be putting people together to, to kind of like build power for people who are already in office to help succession planning, to help mentorship, [00:40:00] to help maintain and amass more power. And I hate that we have to use power in that way, but that's what politics is about. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I mean, Dianne Feinstein, I mean, she, I'm sorry, may her spirit rest in wherever she rests.

Kelli King-Jackson: Fumbled the ba the ball. Right? Because she had a chance to pick her successor, make sure they had power, and her constituents would've voted for whoever she deputized. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah. She, she, she definitely played it, played it, played this, and now we gotta, 

Kelli King-Jackson: now we gotta fight for seats we shouldn't have to fight for.

Kelli King-Jackson: Right. Because we know what gerrymandering it's gonna be hard to keep it right. So Yeah. So even our strategy is because we are so deeply entrenched in this way of being, it is doing us a long-term disservice. Right. And so I'm curious, like how this, I never believed that democracy could fail cause I never saw it.

Kelli King-Jackson: Right. I never thought it was possible. Like I never thought, not that I never, I thought it was highly unlikely that we would actually eliminate Roe [00:41:00] versus Wade. I knew we would try to erode it and chip away at it, but that the Supreme Court would actually go back on its practice that I did not think would happen.

Kelli King-Jackson: Right. And so We have, we're going to put ourselves in such jeopardy because we have not trained up a future generation who understands how this democracy works to also be able to chart what is our next iteration of this thing. Because what, what is here is not going to last. I, 

Kendra Ross: I agree, but I don't necessarily think the young people don't know how democracy works.

Kendra Ross: They see how what democracy has meant for us and to them, it, it ain't S H I T point blank period. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Like, like they like, Oh, we, 

Kendra Ross: Oh, we got your number. We don't want no parts of it. Right. So 

Kelli King-Jackson: I think that is also part of it. I agree. Yeah. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah. And I'm not saying all of them, there are some people who just, they're just talking, you know, freely, but for a lot of people they're like, Oh, we get it and we don't want any parts of it.

Kelli King-Jackson: And so 

Kendra Ross: they, we don't want to participate or either we're going to bring it down or we're going to just completely divest. [00:42:00]

Kelli King-Jackson: I'm down for bringing it down. I just want to know what we bringing back. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah, what we doing. Or what we doing next. And I agree with you and I, and I agree with everything you said about Dianne Feinstein.

Kendra Ross: I think she's a particularly egregious. example. And I think that she had a personal responsibility to make a different decision and she didn't. And then she left and like all hell broke loose. But I, and I, and I'm not trying to cover for any of the, you know, our Black leaders who are having the same issue.

Kendra Ross: My, my point is who are the people, even amongst our group, who are not necessarily politicians, but have certain level of political power clout and are in certain spaces that we can say, how do we collectively come together and push forth their hand? And I'd love to see more of that, particularly with Gen X.

Kendra Ross: Cause you're right. Like. I mean, I almost, almost broke down crying cause I'm like, I've been in, I call a middle management purgatory. Yeah. For how many years now? There are different decisions I could have made to move up in certain spaces, but I'm like, I'm not selling my soul for this little fake role.

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. 

Kendra Ross: Right. So like you hit the nail on the head and I think we need to just do a podcast specifically about succession [00:43:00] planning and how the lack of really. Great succession planning has impacted particularly Black women in the millennial and gen X generation there. Cause like some of the Zen yields who are a little older when who are still a little bit more tied to duty than the younger ones struggle with some of the same issues.

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. Well, I mean, I hope we figure it out cause I'm not trying to work Tom 80. So I've received. Respect that I respect auntie Maxine that she she doesn't aspire to not labor but I want my labor to come to an end sooner rather than later because I actually want to travel and have fun and do other things, And I think that our generation struggles with that because we haven't seen it right like my mom still works a lot of my friends parents still work and so this idea that we have the Transcribed And we can talk about why that is in another episode.

Kelli King-Jackson: But, you know, even if my mom could retire, I don't think she could be still that long. Like my grandmother technically really didn't retire until she was 80 [00:44:00] because she kept going back. Right. She was the volunteer. And then she was volunteering a year and then she on TV for being a volunteer. And I'm like, lady, like I'm tired.

Kelli King-Jackson: And so this idea of like, Being idle was they were trained. That was not a good thing, right? And so it doesn't mean I don't think we should use our brains or be of service or participate in civil society, but I don't, I don't want to work. 

Kendra Ross: And some people don't want it like something volunteering. Like my mother still does a lot for the church and I'm like, why don't you just let them pay you?

Kendra Ross: She's like, no, I like being a volunteer. Cause if I don't want to do it, I'm not going to do it. Now she never has that moment where she doesn't want to do it. But, but like, my mother said at 62, she said, I'm out peace. Anything I do is because I'm making the choice to do it, which I'm proud of her, right?

Kendra Ross: But yeah, that's not everybody's, and another episode of some of these Millennials and Gens, they not gonna be able to retire to the 80 because ain't no money nowhere. They ain't got no houses, they ain't got no wealth building. Barely we

Kelli King-Jackson: ain't going, I'm so scared. 

Kendra Ross: [00:45:00] So we, so we, so we ain't leaving them a good world to be able to retire.

Kendra Ross: So that's a whole nother story for another. You know, another day, but anyway, let's wrap this up. Any, any particular last thoughts you have about this conversation or like takeaways you want to want to leave folks with before we go? 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah. I think I'm, I'm taking away, like, how do I live into fullness now?

Kelli King-Jackson: Yeah, if I could put down shame and this worthiness baggage, like what is, what is living into fullness at 50 versus. Some, you know, when, when, whatever happens, what could that look like for me? Like, what, what could I Accomplish and contribute to the world if I can put those bags down? 

Kendra Ross: That's really a great way to put it Kelli I've been in this space where I've been trying to financially prepare myself for a future, a sooner future.

Kendra Ross: I'm working on trying to like partially retire by 55 [00:46:00] and that's great. I'm glad. And I've been like obsessed with the whole fire movement and thing, listening to people just because I just want to, like, I don't want to work to your point early. I'm like, I'm, I'm ready to tap out, maybe get a little paid board opportunity.

Kendra Ross: But. With that being said, how do I live my best full life now without waiting for some future? Like if the stock market collapses, right? Or if I lose my, my, my, you know, very, you know, my, the job that I love that's, that pays me well, like what does a full life look like for me now? Not based on, you know, numbers, not based on, I mean, there's practicality to it, but like, not based on some like distant future, right?

Kendra Ross: Like what is it like to live my full life now? Not based on fear or shame or what ifs. But just sound like, this is what brings me joy right now. Like doing a podcast with my bestie, like sitting out on my back porch, you know what I mean? 

Kendra Ross: Like working on my blog, like finishing the EP I've been working on forever.

Kendra Ross: So yeah, I think your earlier point about when we lead out of fear, we can't lead in our fullness, [00:47:00] like letting go of that fear piece and like really get about the business of liberating myself from what something was supposed to be and what something's going to be in the future. But what is happening now?

Kendra Ross: How do I live my full life now? Wow. 

Speaker: Mm. 

Kendra Ross: Oh, and with that, don't come here and take your, don't come in here and then take your gifts out here with you. That's the other one. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Yes. Yes. 

Kendra Ross: From Jimmy Blue Blad. Yes. 

Kelli King-Jackson: I love it. I love it. Wow. I think that's it for this episode, y'all. 

Kendra Ross: Yeah, for sure. 

Kelli King-Jackson: Don't forget to follow us and join our group chat on Instagram at this woman is work pod until the next episode.

Kelli King-Jackson: We'll see you in the group chat. 

Kelli King-Jackson: This woman is work. 

Kendra Ross: You're going to get it. 

Leatra Tate: HEY-- [00:48:00] I didn't mean for that to come out. 

Kelli King-Jackson: That is going to be a great blooper. That must make it to something very soon. 

Leatra Tate: Ha, ha, ha!