Kendra: The views shared in this episode represent Kelli and Kendra, not our mamas, partners, church, job, or sponsors.

Kelli: Hi y'all, this is Kelli King Jackson and Kendra Ross and welcome to this episode of our podcast, This Woman, This Work. We are glad to have you here. 

Kendra, it's been a lot going on this week. 

Kendra: Yes. And before we get into it, welcome back to the group chat, everyone. 

Kelli: Welcome back y'all. 

Kendra: I'm Kendra, just so you can get used to my voice again. 

Kelli: And I'm Kelli. And we have, our group chat has been on fire this week. This week in history was president Biden stepping down [00:01:00] from the campaign.

All right. So y'all, this episode was recorded right before Joe Biden. publicly said he was going to endorse Kamala Harris and a whirlwind has happened since then. I mean, it has been Wild. She has received all the delegate support. She has received a lot of pushback because of said support. She has made her speeches.

Her husband has been outed for having an affair with his first wife. Like it has been wild in these internet streets. 

Kendra: Kelli and I were already planning to go to what we call the black lady call. When with black women, the call we've been attending off and on since 2020, we were planning to go. And I remember when the Biden thing announcement came out, that he was stepping down and we were like, Ooh, child, we got to go to the black lady call [00:02:00] tonight and all hell broke loose.

And we found out later and the world found out that over 44, 000 black women joined a zoom call. They only expected maybe up to a thousand cause they had a regular standard usually when we're on the zoom. There is no webinar. It's like a regular zoom. You can talk in the chat. People can ask to be unmuted and they were so overwhelmed.

They were not prepared for all the people that came to, to rally around and to figure out how we mobilize ourselves for Kamala. And the biggest takeaway from that was not Kamala for, for Harris, right? We say last names for men. We should say last names for women. 

Kelli: Ooh, snap, snap. 

Kendra: And what was so striking about it is people were getting upset that they weren't able to get in.

They said, what's wrong with these people? They can't get it together. And we took a step back and said, now hold, hold tight. And we talked about this because we did talk about this before, but We've, we've been organizing for four years, so the technology has to follow us. We're not chasing the technology.

In fact, this was already in place. And so it was very exciting and actually leave it to black women, those [00:03:00] 44, 000 black women, which were facilitated by a hookup at the zoom company from the COO from zoom, who quickly was able to change the account and give it extra space for people could have a webinar of up to beyond 40, people.

Started a trend. The next thing you know, we got one with black men. We got one with the white guys. We got one with the white ladies. We got one with the church ladies. We got one with the Christians. We got one with the South Asians. When with the first ladies, I mean, we all winning. And it's black women started the movement four years ago before they, they originally were organizing around Harris for VP.

And they were already in place for president. And here we are, here we are, here we are. 

Kelli: And Kamala Harris stepping forward. 

Kendra: Indeed. Which is wild, which is wild because we were just talking at the end of the last episode about how frustrating it is for us when particularly the boomer generation doesn't put a succession plan in [00:04:00] place and that we end up putting ourselves in like a really precarious situation and it's like, Joe was listening in, even though we didn't put it out at the time.

Because yeah, like 

Kelli: Joe understood the assignment. He needs to listen to Black women. 

Kendra: Absolutely. Listen to Black women, because, you know, people are questioning the timing and even questioning whether he made this decision kicking and screaming, and that's fine, but the timing of it was serendipitous to me.

Like, Right after the RNC convention and them kind of feeling like, Oh, snap, like, we had a whole plan and y'all just put a whole monkey wrench in our joint. So, I found it very fascinating and exciting, but I don't get it. I don't want to get ahead of myself. Go ahead. 

Kelli: I mean, there have been a lot of think pieces already on linkedin about leadership and stepping, knowing when to step aside.

Some of them have just talked about being able to, like, read the room and the, the moment and knowing when your new leadership is needed. Other people [00:05:00] have been talking about the over representation of white folks in leadership, which I thought was interesting. Reframe and then I saw one or two pieces that talked about age and well being being a factor.

So lots of interesting discussions about secession and knowing when it's time to pass the baton. 

Kendra: Absolutely. And, and timing is everything. And again, I don't know if it was planned out perfectly or if it was just happenstance, but for me, you know, This is where we are. This is the moment. It's better that he did it now than when it was too late and we didn't trump 2. 0. So, I appreciate it. I do think that it's a very complicated situation and I think this is why I'm such a proponent of people learning to have nuanced conversations. Because it could be both and and all. It could be a little bit of everything. It's not just one cause and effect. It's not a linear process.

process to think about how our, you know, how our politics operate and how people make certain decisions. But I, I do [00:06:00] think that our litmus test for how all this is going is And we know this, that Obama still has a very strong voice in the DNC and that a lot of what happened early on where people started having questions as to whether Biden should step down, regardless of for what reason, the reason why it kind of came to a head to me, a lot has to do with the power of the voice of Barack Hussein Obama, who is still a very powerful voice.

And if your own boy that puts you in your place of power in the first place is like, It might it might be time for you to sit down then it's something you have to look at He kind of keeps the pulse of what's going on in the dnc. Do you think that's fair? I don't think anything about our political structure is fair.

The fact that we have a two party system isn't fair. So yeah Politics talking about politics and and fairness They don't necessarily exist in the same conversation. I'm not saying that's right. Yeah, i'm just being 

Kelli: did you see that black lives [00:07:00] matter? Has asked for a process Yes, 

Kendra: I have. I have noticed that and I get the impetus behind it, but I'm also like, we got less than a hundred days.

Yeah. Like we don't have time for that. So like, if this would have happened three months ago, then I would have been like, you know, maybe we should go about this a little differently, but we do not have time for that right now. I'm sorry. As much as I am, I don't like, I'm not, I don't label myself a progressive or radical or any of those things.

I'm a person. Who believes at my core of inequity, injustice, and in liberation of all people globally. But I'm also a almost 50 year old realist and operating within a certain system. And I know a cart can't go before the horse. And that like, In these kind of like tense 11th hour situations, We have to operate differently than we would when we have a better plan.

Now, granted, we go in this circular system about around like, When do we seek liberation? Do we just tear up the whole system, Or do we just incrementally get [00:08:00] there? But this is a very unique situation it seems. It's unprecedented. There's nothing in the history that happened quite like this. And so we've got to operate a little differently.

So I understand and I don't, I don't begrudge them. And you know, if that's what they, the platform they're choosing, but for me, that just doesn't make sense right now. 

Kelli: Yeah. Would you say that some of the reluctance of our elder statesmen to pass the baton is because they don't really understand? What young people are moving toward.

Kendra: I don't even think they understand what it means to be a young person. Cause some of them are still talking about millennials. And I'm like, millennials are 40. Like those, I mean, not to say that 40 is not young. But in the way they're talking about young. So like, A, know what a young person is. And the other problem is, no shade, no tea, no shade, but 40 now looks very different than 40 when our parents were 40.

So, that's because we queued at 50. Right, so I think they're getting confused, like, we're not really young people, like, we're middle aged. We are. So, like, first, know what young people are, and second, they don't [00:09:00] understand what young people want. Because they don't take a look back at their own selves, they were misunderstood.

Most of these people were like, You know objecting against Vietnam or even if they fought in Vietnam, you know Question it towards the end like these are people most of the people that are in the political system quite frankly Not everybody gets into it because they want all this power and all this money a lot of people got in Because they initially thought they were gonna make change.

They probably were in a movement when they were in college and They wanted to make change and they got in it and they realized the system was rigged and they were like either I stay in It And, you know, amass this power or I go back and work in corporate, you know, and now that's not everybody, but I just think people forget sometimes what it's like to be young, you know, I, I struggle with that where I'm like, Oh man, we complain about young people, but like, The stuff that we experienced, like, I was just talking to someone about, like, the gang violence and all the things we experienced in the 90s.

I'm like, actually, it was actually worse back then. We just didn't have social media. It was wild. Yeah, so we forget, [00:10:00] we forget, you know, what it was like to be young and what the, the conditions under which we were young, right? Like, the conditions are different. The stakes are different.

Kelli: So when is the right time to step aside?

Kendra: Ooh, that's a great question. Cause I don't think it's just like, I don't think, It's not like social security where it's like 62 or 67 It's not like I don't believe in like a set retirement age, but I do think there's a range when you should start having a conversation 

And it's not just about age. It's like part of it is like, your, where you are age wise, part of it is like, how long you've been in a particular system and at what point has your participation in that system done more for that system and what point are you, have you, you have to learn where your peak is and when you start realizing like, When you're self reflective about whether is my being here better for everybody or is it better for me and my legacy?

It's hard. It's a hard. It's a hard question to ask [00:11:00] yourself I ask myself every day that at work like is me being in this position just because i'm trying to build my retirement Or am I actually like doing the work of like helping my community in west and I have to have that Self reflexive conversation every day and I think at a certain point Even well meaning people, like I said, who got in it for the good.

They get to a point where it's really about cementing their legacy and not so much about the work anymore. And yeah, and they've passed their peak. And that's the conversation I think that people need to have. 

Kelli: And maybe they even haven't passed their peak, but they passed the peak that the movement or the community needs, right?

Like you may still be rah, rah, rah, have new ideas, things I want to contribute, but it's not necessarily what, you know, The collective needs right? So I really appreciate you lifting that up I come from an industry where it was called the golden handcuffs because people would get into the industry And never leave, they would never leave because they were making more money than they ever made before.

They would never leave because of the power that they held in the positions. They would never leave because quite [00:12:00] frankly, the job wasn't hard. Right? Like, and so I think there's so many reasons that we get into these roles and we have these handcuffs that keep us bound to them. But I would love to see.

My, my elders do a much better job of passing the baton because it makes me question. It's like, okay, are you not retiring? Cause you don't trust us. Are you not requiring? Cause you don't think you've given us all that we need to know to carry on, you know, like what is, what is it that you're protecting?

Other than yourself. Cause I think our human nature is always going to be a factor. But what is it other than yourself that you're really insinuating that is a problem? And that's what's holding you in this spot. But yeah, it's going to be interesting. This moment is is fascinating 

Kendra: it is fascinating and I just want to note because I had the conversation I have a [00:13:00] good friend of mine who is actually in her early 60s who is a non profit leader So I understand the gold handcuff who worked in like black Community black led community organizations for a long time and is just now in her late 50s Starting to like have the kind of earning power that a lot of people might have had 15 20 years ago But being a black woman and so i've had succession conversations with her before and she said to me Well, you have to understand kendra that some of us we're just now starting to earn retirement retirement like We've been taking care of, like, extended family, a lot of times, you know, we may be, like, the number one breadwinner in our, not just in our homes, but in our entire, like, extended family, and, and there's, some of that plays a factor, and I said to her, I totally understand that, and, and it doesn't, I don't, I'm not, I don't mean to suggest that, like, Your needs don't factor into the discussion, I said, but you should still be succession planning and, and know what, what a, what an exit looks like.

And I said, and in fact, you've done [00:14:00] that because the black led organization that you were working at, you made sure actually the person she's going to, she's going to like trip when she hears this, cause she's going to know what I'm talking about. You left that, that organization much better than it was when you got there.

Not only that, the person who's now the CEO that replaced her was her executive assistant eight years ago. 

Kelli: Oh, wow. 

Kendra: So she, she literally mentored her into that position. I said, that's the word. So I said, I'm not begrudging you because you're a nonprofit executive in your early sixties. I said, I don't, I'm talking about your peers who I know who've been in that position for 30 years.

And if I asked them, if you left today, who would be coming behind you? And they don't, they don't, they don't know. They're like, I'll be thinking, I'll be thinking about that in the next few years. Ma'am, you 70, how you, you haven't thought about it yet. And that's where like, I don't mean to be ageist, but it's just like pragmatically, like that doesn't work.

And so for me, like, I am perfect, I'm not the perfect executive, but one thing that I do do is I'm always looking for, like, who's next. Even when I'm, when I started in my current position, [00:15:00] you know, I spent the first, obviously, the first 12 to 18 months just trying to learn my job and do it better. But as time went on and I started to really deliver, and then I got, eventually got promoted, I was already thinking about, If I leave here in six months, one year, two years, five years, who are the people that would pick up the mantle and do this work?

And how do I start to like plant seeds with them now? So like when I leave, it doesn't feel like, Oh God, we got to do this big search. They already have an idea. And that's across the company, not just in my role. And I, that's just, and I think it's because Thankfully, I have not tied my self worth into what I do.

Kelli: Mm hmm. 

Kendra: I also have some level of privilege because I don't have children. You know what I mean? Not to say that I don't take care of people. And don't help people in my extended family, but like, I'm not responsible for another human being on earth in that way. So like, I make different decisions. But yeah, I do, I do think that we, we don't want to completely remove the needs of the person.

But to my earlier point, if when the [00:16:00] needs of the person start to outshine or outweigh the needs of the greater community, that's problematic for me. 

Kelli: Yeah, I mean, so many good nuggets. I think I was on a podcast recently with Rusty Stahl. He has a podcast called fund the people. Rusty has been talking about why organizations have to invest in leadership.

And I think to your point, you know, there are a lot of particularly women, particularly black and brown women, Who have been leading organizations and have been underpaid and so or and maybe never had a retirement. Right? And so the thought that they are financially able to step aside without a lot of support is is a myth.

Right? And so we have to be able to also hold our sectors accountable for how we invest in our leaders. So that, that becomes an issue that's not on the table, right, that we, we've taken care of the people who've been leading the good work so I really appreciate you reminding us about the financial [00:17:00] implications of stepping aside particularly when we are in a nation that doesn't provide adequate health insurance for folks in some states like my state who don't have expanded Medicaid, and so stepping away from an organization that may provide it.

Benefits that you won't, you can't live without is not an easy, easy decision. And so also how do we center humanity in the conversation about secession? So, yeah. 

Kendra: And listen, if we want to stay for 30 more seconds on the financial aspect. This might seem off topic, but it's kind of not. Cause I understand as I get closer to 50 and I recently pulled my social security record from the social security administration.

Cause yes, I am that random person to see my earnings, at least from the social, social security standpoint, my earnings over the past 30 years. And I realized that my first real official six figure year, I was like 40, 41. And it wasn't even like base. It was like, You know, my bonus and things, you know, and I was [00:18:00] like, and meanwhile, I'm working with people who are 21 who are already making more than I was making that year.

And I turned 40, so I get it because I'm now in this position where I'm like, how do I catch up? Yeah. How do I catch up? How do I live my life? Enjoy travel, enjoy the finer things in life, but like reckoning with the fact that I've been underpaid my entire career. I was always making enough to live. Like I was never, like, gratefully, ever since I got my first, like, real full time, full time job I've lived well enough to, like, be able to travel a little bit, reckon with credit card debt and all that, but that's another story for another time.

But like, this is just now where I'm like, be able to say like, I'm really saving and I'm really investing and I'm understanding what that means. And you know, who's teaching me. I had two coworkers, one in their thirties, one in their twenties. She's 24. And she's telling me, no, Kendra, you need to do this because this is this, this, this, you know, you're not passing it on to me, girl, the children are teaching me.

Kelli: I need you to pass it along. [00:19:00]

Kendra: So I just wanted to say that as a, as a space for empathy is I get it because I am much closer to retirement than I am to the start of my career. And so I can understand with all the pressures of life and the black tax and taking care of family and now taking, you know, that, you know, you're motivated a little differently, but Also, you know, the, the, the world is in the balance, the country's in the balance, your state or your county's in the balance, and it can't just be about you.

Kelli: No. And I think we can also, you know, recognizing it, acknowledge that Joe Biden don't have to think about none of those things. Right. So when he's not, when he's not stepping aside, then I have a lot of questions. 

This is not a issue for him. He is up the elite. 

So, and. Joe, your biggest dream ever was to become president of the United States.

And baby, you did it. You did it. Go sit somewhere with your great grandchildren in Delaware and enjoy the fruits of your labor. It doesn't mean that you don't still do [00:20:00] the work. Doing the work is you're, you're reading, you're writing, keeping your mind is as nimble as you possibly can. So when your voice is needed, you're in the health that you can, you can provide it, Kamala is still going to need God, God willing, she gets an office.

She's still going to need your. Advice she's gonna need your counsel. And if you're well enough to be able to provide that That's still really important and the country still needs you just not in that same aspect or same way same way. Yeah Man our human nature is a fascinating Stitch child. I mean the ego is real.

We all have one And ego doesn't just mean that you're like completely self centered a lot of times ego is Needing to be needed ego is convincing yourself that if I don't do it, nobody else will do it quite like me You know what I mean? Why you be talking about my last 10 years of therapy? I'm always telling my friends and family listen The world is going to keep spinning.

Kendra: And I was like, I [00:21:00] hate to say, I'm not saying that you're not significant or special and that like, you don't add to the world or add to that person's life, but God forbid something happen to you. The world going to keep spinning. 

Kelli: That's my favorite question in coaching, right? If you drop dead tomorrow.

Yeah, 

they gonna be there. They go, they go figure out how to get into your computer and find your files like we, we, we 

are, we sacrifice ourselves for institutions and systems that will, will not miss a beat with our absence. 

Kendra: Listen, I worked in the same corporate job for 17 plus years. And unfortunately, I saw many of the coworker pass away over that time.

And there would be some extreme sadness. We would have a memorial for them. We, you know, it's not that we didn't care, but within two weeks, they figured it out. I'm not saying it was easy. Like, even when I left, I had been in that job for 17 years. People relied on me. I made sure I transferred the knowledge I needed to transfer to the [00:22:00] people I needed to transfer it to, I wiped my computer out and sent it back to them.

And they freaked out at first. They're like, our computer is empty. And I'm like, trust me, I left y'all in good hands. And guess what? Life went on. It was life went on. It was still the biggest music company in the world. And although I've made an impact, they was okay after I left. Yeah. That's the reality.

Kelli: So then what's the legacy, right? So I think everybody wants to feel like they've contributed something. Well, many people feel like they want to contribute to something. So what is the legacy? These leaders should be focusing on so that succession feels attainable? 

Kendra: That's a great question. And I know it's easier said than done, but I think like, it's always like, if I left today, have I left this place better than what I, how I got it?

And not meaning the entire, like you can't, even the United States president doesn't have control over everything, but like, What you have control over, have you done [00:23:00] more to improve those conditions or do you, can you, at the end of the day, can you go to sleep saying that I, I had the best interest in mind, even if I had a misstep or even if I made a mistake, I don't, you're not going to always get it right, but I have, if I left things better than when I, when I first picked them up and that's really the goal and have I touched to me is have I touched lives?

It doesn't have to be all 400 and plus million people, but like, if, do I have like evidence that like, as a result of my work communities were changed or a person's life was changed. That's what it is for me, but it's, but again, just to being honest and playing, you know, the advocate for those in that situation.

Ego, not necessarily negative ego will tell you, well, if I was able to do that, if I had a little bit more time, I could just do that much more. This, I impacted 500, 000 people. Now, if I just get four more years, I can impact 5 million people. And I know it's easy to get caught up in that, but like, if you focus on the work and not try to force the result, [00:24:00] your intentions are going to come through so much more clearly.

Cause when you get very result oriented, like when you're making an album to win a Grammy. As opposed to like making a really great album and then hopefully it'll be acknowledged. There's a difference in that. And when you're driven by results as the primary reason and not the work. Mm hmm. I know it sounds cliche, but it's just, it's never going to turn out with the best result for the greater good to me.

I think if everybody's in their space doing their best work that they can do every day. Then we'll all be better for it. And that's the legacy we want to leave. 

Kelli: Whew. I mean, that was a lot because we do often focus on success as the measure of progress. And, and you can lose track of your why very easily doing that.

I'm thinking right now about, we just lost another elected leader who was in [00:25:00] office, who passed away here in Houston, Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee. I mean, Sheila was never on the wrong side, in my opinion, of the issues she was fighting for. And she was doing all the things, right, and did not maximize on the opportunity to make sure that her successor, Was in office before she transitioned, right?

Like, so focused on saving democracy, saving Houston, because she jumped in the mayor's race last year, saving all the things. And now it's going to be a hot mess with all the people who are jumping into this race. And so I just think from a strategy perspective. What would have been like if five years ago, 10 years ago, she had been talking about I'm going to be retiring.

And I'm really excited about X who's going to be running for this seat because all those OGs who love Sheila would have voted for whoever [00:26:00] she deputized to be her successor. And now we're in a, in chaos. 

Kendra: You know, that really is what saddened me. I'm like, this woman basically. Beat her life to death, trying to save everybody else.

And it was at what point was it time to focus on her wellbeing?

Kelli: Well, you know, as women, we, we, we save ourselves last. We've been socialized to do it. And that unlearning of, for their generation, it's true. It's too late. Meaning they've, they've been this way their whole lives, which is why I think a lot about how do we slow down the pace, put more spaciousness in our calendars.

Say, say no. Say, here's somebody else. Like, lift up other leaders. Here's somebody who will be great for this opportunity. I don't have to be the one, because We see the impact by 

not 

doing that. 

Kendra: Yeah, that really sad. That's what saddened me the most. [00:27:00] Obviously, I was sad because I've, I've, her name has been at the forefront of my mind since I've existed.

So I just assumed she was older. Not that she looked older or anything, cause you know, black don't crack. So it was just, I was just anticipating her being older. So that really broke my heart more than anything. It's like, man, she never got a chance to retire and enjoy retirement. That bothers me. Cause I've had other people in my life who like.

With prolonged retirement and then by the time they did, like, they were only around for another year or two. 

Kelli: Yeah. 

Kendra: And that happens to black women a lot. It does. Yeah. Can we take a five second moment of silence for Sister Jackson, please? We can.

May the ancestors welcome her home. 

Ashe and Ashe. 

Leatra: What does it look like what strategies or thoughts do you guys have for black women to do better [00:28:00] with succession planning? You talked about it a little bit, but are there like particular steps and strategies that you recommend? It sounds like it's not just Strategy in the practical, logistical sense of, you know, business structures and organizations or spaces that they're in.

Strategies also include a lot of internal self love and self care and, and all of that. So just kind of thinking about what steps do you recommend for Black women in succession planning and all of these different spaces that you've talked about? 

Kendra: Can we keep, can we keep your question in the recording, producer?

Leatra: Oh, absolutely. Let me make sure I sound good in the recording.

Kelli: I appreciate the question, particularly as a leadership coach, because I think a lot about. Who is in our sister circle, and do we have a circle? Right? Who are the other women? and fems in our lives who will tell us the truth. Who are the ones who are gonna ask, when's the last time you took a vacation?[00:29:00]

How is it going with your building out your team? You know, how's your mental well being? You seem a little stressed, right? Like, who are those people who know you well enough, who can call you into conversation? 

Kendra: Who are the people that tell you to sit your ass down somewhere? Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Kelli: No, no, that's, that's super important.

So I think just on a human level, we talk a lot about self care, but there's been some, I think a really good movement towards talking about collective care. And I think for some black women, it's healing your relationships with other black women, right? 

Kendra: Like, come on in here. 

Kelli: So many of us still don't trust each other because of bad experiences we've had with one black woman in the past.

And now all black women are not trustworthy. And so isolation is a tool of dominant culture. I say that a lot. I really believe that. And so if you are a leader who is, It feels like you have no one and you're going it alone, [00:30:00] like meet us in the group chat. Like we want to make sure that you are in community with other black women and fems to support you on your journey.

So that feels like a really important part of the strategy. 

Kendra: I agree. Community care. And I wrote a, I wrote a blog post about this a long time ago. I had to find it on for Harriet. I wrote a blog post on there many, many, many years ago about that. Community care is what's going to save us. Not just self care.

Cause self care can sometimes be like these middle class ideas around going to get to, into the spa and going to, to the islands, which everyone does not have access to those things. Their community care and how we care for each other is important. And it brings to light for me what happened last Sunday.

And we could talk about this, and this is part of our strategy, also, with the Women with Black Women call. Yeah. That has been going on for four plus years, that Kelli and I have sat on, off and on for those four years, to the point where, like, we're like, Pretty much once or twice a month, Kelli will text me and say, are you going to the black lady call today?

And I'm like, I don't know. I'm not in the [00:31:00] mood, but maybe. And it just so happened, I was going to the black lady call that day regardless before they even, Biden even announced it. And then all of a sudden, because that space and somebody made that point somewhere else, because that space had already been organized for so long, they didn't wait until Kamala had to get in.

Black women had been organizing and talking about succession planning and talking about getting other black women in office. And For four years, so that when the time came and we needed it, the space was there, the link was there, although they had to change it because it was too many people, but the space was already there.

And I think it's a very telling in this moment in that, like, the best way for us to strategize is to continue to organize, not wait until Trump comes along, not wait until somebody's about to die. Bye. That we are continuously organizing because the work is already always there to be done. It doesn't mean that we have to sit on calls week after week after week because some of us don't have the bandwidth for that.

Kelli: Mm hmm. 

Kendra: And what bothered me about Sunday [00:32:00] is before they could even really get the thing going, it's black women on Facebook complaining. Oh, what are they doing? Who organized this? The link is already full. They should have planned better for this, ma'am. How was they supposed to do that when Biden just announced this today?

And why are you in here complaining about the work? Where was you four years ago? 

Kelli: Yeah, 

Kendra: where were you two years ago? And not to say that we can't loving the critique. That's why I can't wait for We just be so quick 

with it. Like 

we're just 

Kelli: so hard on ourselves and I think we're hard on each other because we're actually that hard on ourselves.

That has been my revelation in this season, because I think when we think about secession and, and, and passing the baton, We have to do a survey, what is going on around us, right? And instead of just jumping to a conclusion that this is what I need to do, or I can't do this right now, we need to do a little bit of investigation and be in a listening posture.

And that was definitely not happening, right? Folks were like, just, [00:33:00] I 

Kendra: mean, I'm like, girl, where are you been? And then, and I don't, I usually don't like respond to people on Facebook, but I had to go on Facebook, like, ma'am, have a seat because these people, and I said, listen, I've had my own critiques. But I, but this is why I cannot wait till Aja Marie Brown's next book to come out, Loving Corrections.

We've got to get better at loving correction. It doesn't mean that we can't correct each other and critique each other, critique each other both publicly and privately, but it's the way that we do it. And I just want to shout out Joteka Eadie, Holly Holliday, and all the organizers of When With Black Women, and understanding more in this moment why they are so focused on certain demographics, why they focus on the entertainment industry, why they focus on the designer Blacks.

Because those are the people, when it's time to mobilize, those voices count. And so, like, I really understood All the questions of the why this or why that that I've had over the past four years when nothing was really going on. I understood on Sunday child, because when it was time, I mean, even they were like, we prepared for this, but we wasn't [00:34:00] prepared for this.

You know what I mean? And that was really powerful to me. So yeah. 

Kelli: Yeah. I mean, I think it speaks to the strategy around building your network. And I, I see a lot of black women struggle with this because it's like, well, I don't want to be fake or I don't want to just be willy nilly out in these streets, but we have to have a network because.

When you're, when you're thinking about stepping aside, you need to step aside with a plan, right? You need to step aside with here's what I'm going to be doing next. I've queued up. I'm gonna be a consultant. I've queued up my next three clients or I'm gonna go sit on a corporate board and I've already, you know, been approved and I'm, I'm going through my onboarding, right?

Like, Our network allows us to be strategic about how we leave, right? So that when we leave, we are leaving on terms that allow us to live a very full life. 

Kendra: Yeah. So to go back to our original, not the original, but the question that was asked of our producer about like, what are the strategies? I think community care, I think constantly mobilizing and organizing ourselves, even [00:35:00] when we don't think it's an unprecedented moment.

And to your point, Kelli, earlier about like those sister circles, let me tell you something. Anything that I am today, obviously I am because of my mother and my parents and my grand, my grand, like I've been surrounded by wonderful, beautiful women all my life who have cared for me, whether they were blood relatives or not.

I've seen it exemplified in my mom, where her girls who. Go to church, eat with each other, they eat after church every Sunday together, they eat together for each other's birthdays, when they have a passing in their family, when my grandmother passed away, all her girls was at the funeral, they were all at the repass, like, I grew up in that.

So for me, having sister circles, Bell Hooks talks about the importance of sister circles, right? Yeah. Having sister circles has saved my life, has helped me finish school, Multiple times. Yeah. Our producer, Lea Tripp, used to convene us old heads when it was time to write our dissertations. She edited my dissertation, made sure I got it across the finish line.

She and I are part of a sister circle called the Heavenly Seven. [00:36:00] We were seven black women in the same cohort of a PhD program, and all seven of us finished. We all finished because we had each other, right? And I was the last one of the seven. But you made it. I made it sister circles, me and Kelli. We have our sister circle with our girl Kaya.

We have our sister circle with our two friends, Lori and Nicole from NYU. We have our sister circle with our GNO, our girls night out with Angie and Rose and Nicole and Lori. Yeah. Like we have multiple sister circles. Shout out to all of our girls in our various sister circles. Like that's how we survive.

Kelli: Yep. And you can't have too many because Everyone doesn't have the capacity to hold for you at all at the same time. Right? So there are times I go to one circle for one thing, one circle for another thing. One circle might be in the past. Pit of darkness, right? Like we just all going through it. That's not the circle I'm trying to lean on and add more pressure I want to be able to move to other circles so that I can hold space for these folks So I think you know as [00:37:00] as leaders we need to think about who are the folks Who are there for us and who has capacity right as we're trying to think about What we want to do next and how we do those things To be able to pull those different circles into the conversation to support us through our transitions 

Kendra: Absolutely.

I speak in a sister circle. Everybody knows that knows me Knows that one of my main sister circles are my two besties from pittsburgh that I grew up with they call us act three because that's a consulting firm We have danelle and tanika and we just had a conversation this morning because danelle just had a surgery And Tanika is a lot more, like, motherly and matronly, so she was like, she's the type that says, if I had to wipe your behind, I would wipe it.

You know, and I was like if it was life or death, I will got you. But if not, I'd rather just go ahead and pay a nurse to come. I said, Tanika better one to meet. So that's one of my main sister circles, you know, then, and then there's certain conversations. The only person I can talk to about it is Abby because we relate as academics and as musicians, right?

So like, Like you said, [00:38:00] every time, you know, I have different conversations with different sister circles, but I'm just so grateful that I have them and that I would not be where I am without them. And I think that's what. We're seeing with Combo, like, now granted, it's a very complicated conversation, because I believe in our loving correction, we gotta get her in office, and then we gotta hold her feet to the fire, too, about so many things, and I think that's the missing part of this conversation, but I know there's a time and place for everything.

Yeah. But like, Hey, listen, I am not mad. You know, I'm not too radical to be mad at the people that want to do the Chuck's and the pearls and the denying because that's, that's, what's going to, at this point, maintain democracy. So we can get to the next level. And I, 

Kelli: I, I believe that Kamala's group chat is on fire too, right?

They're like, how can we support you? You know, sis, what do you need from us? And we've decided and committed, like, we're going to bring our group chat into different episodes so you all can hear, like, how do they. How do we talk to each other? How do we [00:39:00] support each other? How do we challenge each other? So stay tuned for that.

But I think my group chat, we're trying to figure out, like, are we going to the inauguration? I vote no, but you know, that's, that's just me. We're trying to figure out like, do we donate, right? So one of my, Kaya just sent me a screenshot of her. Employee contribution, right? Like she was so motivated on that call last week.

She's donating from her paycheck for the next three months committed to doing her part. Right. I was like, Ooh, you grown, grown, like you put, you put money on the line. Right. I'm like, okay, I can get my thousand dollars. Cool. Chad, where, who, where am I going to give it? But I'm like, you know, I'm gonna give my contribution into this place.

Some of y'all can write 5, 000 checks. Like. Put that in the group chat, get your folks activated if you really feel like this candidate is the candidate who we need in this current moment, which plug, I hope you do. 

Kendra: Yeah. So first I want to shout out my mom [00:40:00] and your mom, because my mom was on the women with black women call last week and she stayed to the end and she don't stay up late for nobody.

I fell asleep. Yeah. My mom was, my mom was activated by Kamala. And then Ms. Imelda, your mom texted me, told me to make sure I pass, pass the word to vote for Kamala. So I said, Oh, it's on because we got young women and we got women in their seventies activated. And that's important, but I want to have a conversation real quick and speak to the people that don't know how to critique empire without calling everybody the devil or a clown.

Listen, I let everybody have their stance and, and walk their walk, but some of the contrarians that assume because you're like, because you're saying, well, I feel like we need this in order to get this and this and this. When all of a sudden everybody's a clown and then we're all evil and we want babies to die in other, in other parts of the world.

And that Kamala herself is the devil incarnate. Those conversations are not fruitful for me. So continue to have them, but just don't include me in them. I don't [00:41:00] demonize people. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Kendra: And it's not, it's not productive. It's not fruitful to me. I don't necessarily, I, if I call out, if I see demonic behavior, it's not like I won't call it out, Donald Trump, but this is not a productive conversation for me to have, so continue to have it, but just not with me.

I'm just, I'm just drawing a line in the sand. I just can't, I can't, I can't. And, and, and I think the critique of empire is one that should be had and continue to be had, and we need to do that work. But it is not productive for me to see what she don't, she don't really claim like being black anyway, and she's the devil and she's basically she's genocide Joe part two and she's this like labeling, labeling, labeling, instead of having like a really nuanced, like, I know you're think you're being really smart and nuanced, but you're not.

I'm sorry. You could be mad. It's okay. I'm grown grown. Mm 

Speaker: hmm. 

Kelli: Yeah, I mean, I, I don't agree with all of her policy decisions at all. And, there is no other choice. And, [00:42:00] we said we wanted a better choice and, and she is it. And she ain't even, she ain't president yet. No, and she, but she's overqualified for this job, right?

Like, if you think about her career, And the career of the buffoon that is currently running against her. She's overqualified for this job. So whether you like all of her policies or not, I want somebody qualified to run this country. Not only someone who's going to agree with all of my policy decisions.

And that's, that is something I think in this current moment, people believe you either believe everything I believe, or you believe all. And I think this all or nothing mentality is not I think that is what scares our elders from stepping aside because they know what it takes to run a democracy and it's not getting everything that you want all the time.

Kendra: And everyone who says they're ready for the revolution ain't really ready for the revolution. You can't even put this damn iPhone down. How are you ready for the revolution? [00:43:00] Right? You can't, you can't give up the, the, the basic comforts of life. You are not ready for the revolution you think you're ready for, right?

You're not ready and you don't even recognize. In the nuance and complication of yes, we need to fight for those babies and for those folks in Palestine, in the Congo, all over the world. And if Trump becomes president, it's an immediate threat to us right here, right now. I've got people in F 150s driving down the street with big flags on my street.

I live in the city where the guy who just did the shooting in Butler lives. I live 15 minutes from where he's from. I live 20 minutes from the guy who did the Tree of Life shooting. This is not a game. And I think Kiese Layman made some good points about how in Mississippi, like how just disenfranchised the black voter is in Mississippi.

And that like, even though he has his critique of empire and Kamala, he recognizes that it's a privilege for him to say, well, don't vote for any of them. He's like, I can't say [00:44:00] that living in Mississippi. 

Leatra: No. That now that would be, I was curious as you were talking does anything come to mind that you would like to share around.

this level of critique that we're seeing for Kamala and the discussions and the criticism and things like that. And particularly, is there a level of critique that she's experiencing because she is a black woman, because, you know, to the point where you know, folks are ready for a revolution, as you said, but is, is the timing convenient you know, for it, for it to be Kamala that is preventing people from being willing to partake in and continue to participate in this game of democracy that they played in for so long.

Kelli: Yeah, I mean, the number one reason I didn't want her to run is because I don't believe that white women. Or quite frankly, this nation was gonna support a black woman running for president, period. I saw what they did to us after Barack [00:45:00] ran and the visceral hatred that just exploded because a black man was president and you think, you think that y'all go support, you want me to think y'all gonna support a black woman?

So I, I do believe a lot of the critique she's receiving is around her being a black woman. I think a lot of our internal self hatred is coming out, particularly around this. Is she black? Is she black enough? Like the fact that we as a community are still having that conversation about our own people. Is something that we have to look inward on the colorism that still exists within black community like those things have been a part of how we have been taught to not trust each other.

And I think that it is, it is bubbling up. I also think some of this is bots, quite frankly, and I think we also have to be mindful of that, because some of this, how we will [00:46:00] critique each other, is bots being insinuated into conversations, because a lot of these conversations are not happening face to face.

They're happening online and we know that when we are online, people get emboldened to say things that they wouldn't necessarily say right to someone who was in their physical present and the perfectionism, right? Black women, we don't get to make mistakes. Period. Right? There are policies that I'm sure she's supported that she would think differently about as, as I, right?

There are candidates I voted for that I think differently. There's theology that I supported that I think differently as I've grown and matured and come to my own understanding. I'm sure that there's the same for her, but she's not going to get that space and grace because she's a Black woman. 

Kendra: I think all that is true, but I think the constituency I'm talking about is completely different.

I'm talking about the people. That are afraid to lose their, lose their leftist card. I'm talking about the people that got 200, 000 worth of post secondary education, and they got to prove how leftist they are. Where I do see the difference [00:47:00] though, is as opposed to when Biden was running initially, or as opposed to other situations, like the people who are still like Bernie should run, or Jill Stein should run, as opposed to putting forth a third party candidate, what most of them are doing is saying, I will not speak out on Kamala's behalf.

I do not support empire in that way. And 99 percent of them probably will vote for her if they vote at all. But they want to make sure that they're not publicly celebrating her because they are afraid they're gonna lose their leftist card. Now some of them really believe that, and I'm not undermining people's beliefs or, you know, if that's what you really stand on, stand on business.

But some of these people, to me, is very much political theater. Hmm. And I read between the lines because I look at what you post and how you approach people when there are no politics at stake. And some of y'all are nasty. So I take your vision of saving the babies across the other side of the world with a grain of salt.

Because on day to day, when you're judgmental about people with how, what they look like and what they wear and how much education they have. [00:48:00] And all of a sudden I'm supposed to think that you are captain, you know, you Howard Zinn. No, boo. It don't work like that. So I do think that there is a constituency who definitely has, has a further critique on her, but then there are these other ones that are like, I'm not gonna just accept her because she's a Black woman.

No one asks you to do that. These other ones have flattened all the rest of us as if we're stupid. And what it is, is just trying to, it's a way of trying to clown the people who have said, listen, I have made the decision that this is the, this is what we need for such a time as this is to vote for Kamala.

We're not all stupid. And so there, there's some of that like, Like I said, some of these people who are like super educated, who probably have post secondary degrees are leaned left and I respect them because I, I am not far from them. But that just want to make it seem like if, if you are having a conversation about voting for Kamala Harris, that you are not, you don't have a critique for empire and that's just not true.

Kelli: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, we lose so much nuance [00:49:00] in, in a lot of these conversations. And we just, we're just stuck in binary thinking. It's how we've been socialized. Yeah, I, I, I love that we keep bringing back this also this continuum because while, yes, we're not a monolith, like it's even more nuanced than that.

When you think about our diversity of thought and, you know, do people feel safe enough to be truthful about how they really feel, right? Like all the pontificating and all the posturing. doesn't really tell us what you truly believe, right? And what you really care about. And that's really, to me, the most important part.

Because then I can understand your politics, right? Then I can understand, oh, you're just talking out the side of your face because you don't really, you don't really believe in any of that. But I think this bringing in the continuum of For lack of a better phrase, progressive thinking. That is not all, like you said in a [00:50:00] previous episode, that we all have to be socialists and Marxists.

And it's not all that we are gonna be centrist and moving more towards the right. Like, we, we have many shades of gray that we have to have space for, right? These are, One thing I did thought that white folks did not model well was how people just disown their family because they voted for Trump as though that was gonna 

Speaker: do 

Kelli: anything.

Right. I'm a boycott Thanksgiving because my whoever, whoever, You know, supports Trump instead of actually doing the work, you need to gather your folks right now. Right? And I think that was what what I want us to do as well. Right? In this moment. Like, there's some folks I need to gather. So I'm going to participate in higher heights house parties this fall.

Because I do have some folks in my network that some of the stuff that they're saying and the way that they're showing up is, is not, [00:51:00] not helpful. And so let's be in dialogue together so I can better understand and also so we can hold each other accountable for how we're showing up in this political moment.

Kendra: Absolutely. And I just want to like, Make sure I'm very clear. I am not saying that people who really stand on that belief are wrong. For instance, I'll bring his name up, Mark Lamont Hill. Mark Lamont Hill has been very clear about what he thinks of the political process from the beginning, and he's lost things.

He's still on business. He's willing to lose. He's had very lucrative media contracts taken away because he says what he means, and he means what he says. I'm not saying he's perfect, but he He's very clear on what he thinks and even now I'm watching, you know, how he's being responsible with his platform is he still has his beliefs about empire, but he's moving a little differently.

Mm hmm. And he's making more space for other people to use their voices with his new YouTube channel Night School. And even on social media, I'm watching how he's using his platform. It's clear to me that he still has the same set of beliefs, but he's [00:52:00] moving a little differently, not because he doesn't want to lose more, because he's recognizing, how can I be more useful in this particular moment?

And I believe, if people believe some of the things they're saying, and they're being and they're stating like, I believe empire's trash, I'm not voting, fine. But, what I don't like is, You should not vote. Y'all, you shouldn't vote. Y'all are whack. Y'all just jumping on the bandwagon. This is groupthink.

Why, they sat on that women, black women call. They didn't talk about reparations. They didn't talk about this. Like, ma'am, we just found about this two hours ago. Now we just trying to come together to say, okay. What do we need to do now? Cause we got a hundred plus days and now less than a hundred days.

That's what I'm saying. I'm like, I, I'd never, I will never say don't believe what you believe, but stand on what you believe, but don't come from me. I'm not coming for you. But when you start doing little random, like little, like calling people clowns or saying she not black and all these other like weird label y things, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not with it.

That's not [00:53:00] productive. 

Kelli: Look, and I, I, I appreciate her, her owning her, her multiculturalism, right? Like she's, she identifies as Black, but she's very clear she's South Asian, right? She is her mama's child. Right? Her momma raised her, right? Her momma was the one who influenced how she and her sister lead. And so, yes, absolutely we want to honor the fullness of her identity.

But she is very clear. However you describe it means not nary a thing to her. She is clear she is a Black woman. 

Kendra: Yeah, this episode gonna get us in trouble, but it's okay. I mean, that's why we have a 

Kelli: team to monitor 

the chat.

So thank you to our team for making sure these people don't, don't try to come for us too hard, but yeah, I 

mean, also people are going to disagree with us. And that's a part of putting ourselves [00:54:00] out in the

Kendra: world. That's fine. I'm hungry. So that's making it worse. So I, so like, don't come for me when I'm hungry.

Cause I haven't eaten yet today. Don't come for me. If I haven't sent for you. Ooh, I am not sending that's from who's that from real housewives of Atlanta. Yes. 

Kelli: So what's the takeaway is this, Ooh, what is the takeaway? The takeaway is secession can be a beautiful thing. And it can be a conduit for transformation.

Kendra: And my takeaway is that pouring into building and mobilizing ourselves, regardless of what's happening in the day to day is important. And that sister circles are really, really important. And it doesn't mean we all have to agree on everything. I want my, I want, well, you can't be thinking that I don't deserve to have what I deserve.

You know, like there's some limits and boundaries, but in general, we don't have to agree on every single point or every single [00:55:00] policy. But the thread is liberation not only upholding democracy, but making it better. Yeah. If we have those, and then practicing loving correction and loving critiques and not tearing each other down and not equating each other with the devil incarnate I think is a good start.

I agree. Awesome. 

Kelli: Thank you. I 

Kendra: want to make one last shout out to my, my god sis and family, Ashley Allison, CNN commentator Ashley Allison, who gathered former Lieutenant Governor Betsy, I don't even know how to say her name. But she gathered her live on air when the lady was trying to speak over her.

Kelli: She tried it

Kendra: to speak over her and Ashley let her have it. And told her just because she talks the most or talking loud It doesn't mean that she knows what she's talking about or she's got something to say. So shout out to her who actually her birthday was just friday. Happy birthday July 26th since her and I think she turned 42 she's on the beach somewhere right now.

So god bless and shout out to my Strong, strong, strong voice [00:56:00] for the people who has done a lot of work. She was part of the campaign that got Barack Obama in office twice. She got Joe Biden in the office. And she just launched watering hole media. A shout out to Ashley Allison. 

Kelli: Awesome. So we hope to see you in the group chat.

Follow us on Instagram at this woman is work pod. See you 

Speaker: soon. 

Kelli: Now that would be a dream. Yes. Oh, we can get him. Oh, I would need some medication. Well, you know, he, 

Kendra: he and they have a podcast together now. She used to live in Pittsburgh. And I know her because she was one of the first people to read my dissertation for me.

Leatra, get ready. So we can, we can invite both of them. Now. I don't know that we're going to get them, but I just like to speak things. 

Kelli: I know we don't backtrack that energy. I want that. And this 

Kendra: is where I become a designer black. I'm going to be in Paris in September. And she's speaking at the James Baldwin conference in September.

So I told her we should get together for coffee and she said yes, so I [00:57:00] will. Yes, I too have my designer black moment. When I'm in Paris talking to her over coffee, I will bring it up. 

Kelli: I want to be a bougie black like you one day. 

Leatra: Goals, goals.