Kendra: The views shared in this episode represent Kelli and Kendra, not our mamas, partners, church, job, or sponsors.

Kelli: Live from the Eco Lodge, it's This Womanist Work. 

Kendra: Welcome back, Chiyah. 

Chiyah: Hi. 

Kendra: Or welcome, Chiyah. It's back and welcome at the same time because You were here from the beginning, but you weren't here from the beginning. 

Chiyah: Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. 

Kendra: You want to talk about what that means, what I mean by you were here from the beginning, but she weren't here from the beginning?

Chiyah: You want me to talk about what that means?

Kendra: Yeah, from your perspective. I'm interested in what does that mean to you? 

Chiyah: Oh, you know, you know how I always say I'm the little sister who like, just comes along. So 

when we started talking about doing a [00:01:00] podcast, it was never for me, like an actual podcast, like we were going to just record some things.

And then my life got a little crazy recently and trying then becoming this very exciting, real thing with a producer and plans and stuff, everything was overwhelming. And so this woman, this work became overwhelming, but also I w it was never my, like passion. So it feels good. Like I listened to episode one and I was just smiling and I was telling everyone like, I'm really so proud of it and exciting and it feels good to have been a part of the beginning, but it not be my thing right now.

And that I'm welcome to come and be the little sister that comes along whenever I feel I like it. 

Kendra: She also helped design the concept and the logo and the art and the direction and the pitch deck, the whole thing. So she's definitely like a co creator producer type situation. So we're so happy to have you here.

Kelli: How does that feel hearing that out [00:02:00] loud? 

Chiyah: You know, I don't give myself credit for things. And so it was not to hear out loud. Oh, I did help design a logo in the colors scheme and those things. Feels nice. I'm glad to have contributed. 

Kendra: Can we go back a little bit? We should properly introduce you. You are actually Dr. Chiyah Lawrence. Yes. Oh, are we allowed to give you a government? Yeah. You would have been on the podcast, your name would have been on here. Um, so Dr. Chiyah Lawrence, who are you? 

Chiyah: Dr. Chiyah A. Lawrence. I am a clinical psychologist. 

Kelli: Snap. 

Chiyah: No, um, I'm a clinical psychologist who is currently not doing any clinical work.

And I'm very happy about that right now. I'm moving into Kind of admin advocacy things. Um, I met Kelli way back around 2003. I think while I was still at UCLA. We were at church on a Wednesday night, and I said that she had good handwriting for a left handed person because, oh, the shade of it all. That's why [00:03:00] I liked her handwriting.

And that's how we met. And then we started, uh, working in youth ministry together. And then, um, I inherited Kendra because she and you guys were besties. 

Kendra: Yeah, I come with the territory. 

Kelli: I'm just happy that she's here and glad that we got to create this thing together. 

Chiyah: Me too. 

Kendra: And by the way, that we're together in person, this is a live recording.

Live from the Econo-lodge in Edgar Town, Martha's Vineyard. 

Kelli: Yes. 

Kendra: I mean, we are both being extra bougie and designer Black. And also very low budget. And I love that for us. 

Kelli: Yes. Yes. Balance. 

We're definitely the awkward group of the Black bourgeoisie this weekend. So yeah. Can we talk about that? 

Kendra: So like, I mean, we're here and I was gonna say "We're here. We're queer," but like we're here and we are of the Black bourgeoisie [00:04:00] to a certain extent, the Black bourgeoisie, um, but we're here and it's always a Dichotomy for me to be in places like this where it's so exciting to see so much Black cultural history, be right in front of us and be a part of that. But also feeling sometime that inner insider outsider feeling of being amongst the elite Blacks of America, the spec, specifically in this part of the country, there's elite, designer, Black folks everywhere.

So back to the story of us being and being at the, we're not really at the econ lodge, but for the, for the purposes of safety and security, we are at the econ lodge. In Edgar town and the purpose of our budget and for the purposes of our, of our, our budget, we are at the quote, unquote, uh, Econolodge of Martha's Vineyard.

No shade. Cause it's, you know, it's, it's very cute. What did you say? Choice? It's the title of the choice. Now you bought the, you bought the exposes. Oh, we won't be here. Yes. Our whole team is here in [00:05:00] our hotel room recording live from Martha's Vineyard. Like, We knew we wanted to do a live from Martha's Vineyard pod.

I didn't think we'd be doing it in the Econ O Lodge, but I'm not mad at it because it feels very on brand that like we're both, back to my original point, where we are amongst the Black elite. We are amongst Black excellence, but we're also have that, this like certain discomfort. Um, maybe that's just me.

I shouldn't speak for other people. 

Kelli: Well, we're also ourselves wherever we go. So that's also sets us apart. We don't do airs very well. 

Kendra: Although everything is perception because there are people believe who believe I do airs. There are people who believe that I think I was, you know, I, I see a post on Facebook often it says people think I'm being stuck up in the streets and really it's just my social anxiety.

And that is so me sometimes I am irritable, but sometimes I'm just being socially anxious anyway. How you feel about your experience thus far? 

Chiyah: Um, I, you know, when, when I was on [00:06:00] campus at UCLA, those of us who were really active in the African student union would be very frustrated by the Black people who had nothing to do with us and would walk by us on campus and not speak.

And I felt like that while we were walking through town a little bit, like I don't understand the Black person that avoids making eye contact with other Black people, especially in a place where. We're outnumbered. It's just, you know, it's natural for me. What's up? Hi, we, we are the same, but we are not fully the same with the designer Blacks we may be encountering this weekend.

Kendra: And I don't always mean designer Blacks as being derogatory. Cause in some eyes I may be a designer Black, but there is a brand. Um, and some of that comes with the brand, right? Is that like, we have this understanding when we're used to being one of the only or one of the few in spaces that we have this certain bond and not everybody has that same feeling amongst people who were, I feel like, historically, Black people from different backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, lived in the same spaces, but they didn't [00:07:00] necessarily, they didn't necessarily socialize together.

Um, so you, it's almost like hearkening back in some of these areas. What you thinking, Kel? 

Kelli: I mean, I think the first thing that's just come into mind is, Um, and in, in, you know, I think for the three of us, just because of our education level in our families, we might be considered of the bourgeoisie, but in the world in which we spin, we aren't always the bourgeoisie, right?

We're not always the people who have the most exposure for the most money or the most, um, relationships or whatever the case may be. And so it's just interesting being in a place where, you know, People have been connected for generations because they were in Jack and Jill, or they were in a sorority, or, you know, they're a part of a HBCU alumni group, and they have this [00:08:00] very unique bond, right, of being together for long periods of time, whereas our togetherness is kind of came to happenstance, if you will, um, and we don't have those other social networks to undergird that.

Um, and I think that some of what could come off as, um, as elite is also a confidence like, I feel like my peers who went to HBCUs, who did Jack and Jill, who were in these spaces, who were always pumped up about their Blackness being amazing and positive and an asset move about the world very differently.

Um, and I think that's also something to be like, really excited about that. There are Black people who don't feel like they have to shrink. Like they move through the world like they should be there. Um, and they take up a lot of space, which I think [00:09:00] sometimes in my friend group, we don't take up enough space.

And so it can feel very uncomfortable watching Black people who do take up space when you aren't, when I am not always comfortable doing that. So that's what's been also coming to mind. 

Kendra: That's an interesting perspective because I think even though socioeconomically I didn't come from that, I do think I had, I had that social and cultural capital specifically where I was born in Youngstown where like my grandfather was a Bonhomme pastor and my, my family is not financially considered one of those, like, and we still to this day don't consider ourselves like, but we.

There is probably a perception from other people in that way. So I do feel like we did show up or carry ourselves differently than like maybe other sides of my family or other people in the community. So I do, that does make a lot of sense to me. And I think that that's, that's largely true, but there's something very specific about like the Eastern seaboard of Blackness, which I was trying to get to earlier, is that like, I've experienced some of like the, the diaspora of [00:10:00] Black American elite, like on the West coast.

In the South, but there's something very particular about from like, I would say D. C. up to Boston. 

Kelli: Mm hmm. 

Kendra: It's a very particular lineage. Yeah. Very, like, it's historical, but not like, there's, there's obviously ties to the South and all that other stuff, but there's a whole different, I mean, I mean, I mean, Martha's Vineyard is a perfect example of that, like, Black folks had started out, like, being servants in people's homes and things and being able to establish themselves places like here, places like Sag Harbor, places like Highland, Highland Beach in Maryland.

Um, it's just a different kind of way to be Black in America. 

Kelli: And we can also just learn to be more Accepting of each other as Black people. Yes. Right? Yes. Like there's also that, right? When you see, I think one thing about the three of us is we always root for the undergo. Mm-Hmm. , right? And so when we see people who don't root for you, see I'm new, you know, I don't know nobody, right?

Like, you not gonna just go say hi, Hey sis, welcome. Like, but that's also a [00:11:00] sensibility that I think that we carry, that other people don't carry. Um, so yeah. So I think there's also that, you know, like. When we reach whatever the thing is that we're reaching, how do we make sure how we're showing up is inclusive and welcoming for people who are coming behind us?

I think it's important for us to remember. 

Kendra: It's a good point. And to be honest, If we wanna be honest with ourselves, Kelli, there've been plenty of times where we've traveled or we've been places where we'd be like, look, I didn't come here to bring y'all niggers with me. Yeah. Like, I was trying to get away.

I didn't wanna see, I didn't wanna see you here. You know, so like, we can all re we all wrestle with that from time to time. Mm-Hmm. We have to bend that person to somebody else. Oh, I know 

Kelli: I have, yeah. . 

Kendra: So, I mean, if we check ourself before we record ourself, we can see either. We have a little bit of empathy for us.

Like, wait a minute, like, I don't need everybody from the, from the, from the community coming up here. Like, this is our little secret thing, but at the same time, you've got to be careful about that. Because we need this because gatekeeping happens to us all day long. So we don't want to recreate those things in other spaces.

It's very, it's a, [00:12:00] it's a delicate balance, but I did get a cute dress though. 

Kelli: She did, she did. 

Kendra: And I did see a childhood friend, which was wild. Of all the places for me to see, you know, she lived in Chicago. We grew up in Pittsburgh, and I see her on the corner in Eckertown. 

Kelli: I'm sure you're gonna see a lot more people you know in the next couple of days.

Kendra: Yeah, I saw somebody on the, well, I don't really know her, know her, but someone I have been acquainted with in the past on the ferry over. 

Kelli: Yeah. 

Kendra: Oh, and I did see the other guy from Pittsburgh. 

Chiyah: We're at three. 

Kendra: Sorry, I'm telling on myself. Just meaning that we Black and we live on the east coast 

Chiyah: and you know, a lot of people 

Kelli: and we also have to be honest, like at the education and career levels that we're at, it ain't a lot of us, right?

So the pond ain't that full, right? Even though we don't know all, we don't all know each other. We all know someone who does, um, which is, you know, I think a sad thing being in America that that is so, but these social networks are not as expansive. Yeah. [00:13:00] As one would think, 

Kendra: But at the same time, it's. the appeal of here.

I haven't even spent time at Oak Bluffs really yet, but like the appeal of being up here is very evident to me. Like I could definitely see myself coming back, bringing other family. Um, it's something that I, you know, it's been on my to do list for decades and it just hasn't happened. So I'm glad we, we started in a group chat and talked ourselves into coming.

And, um, so what, what brings you here? What brought you here last year? 

Kelli: So last year I just came cause I was curious. Um, that there was a space cultivated by a Black woman for Black social impact leaders who are moving resources to business and social change work. Um, that was very intriguing for me. So last year I was kind of just came to learn and kind of see what it was like.

And this year I'm really thinking about My clients and thinking about the work that I want [00:14:00] to do, even thinking about the podcast, like, how do we really build the networks that we need to see the change that we want to see? Um, and that requires resources and the resources are here. And so, you know, I tell people I'm, you know, as an introvert networking, I had to learn how to do that in a way that made sense for me, I had to learn how to do that from a place of authenticity and also, um, That just gave me the space that I need.

And I've learned how to do that. I'm not shy, like shyness is, I don't think how I would describe myself, but, you know, I'm sensitive to people's energy, so I kind of will read a room, but I've also learned how to not be in the corner, which is how I typically was, and it's something me and my coach worked on, like, how do you learn how to show up in spaces that you're not familiar with, and you don't know a lot of folks in the room, and really Find your way.

Um, and so I want to find my way so that I can leverage more resources for the South. That is my My goal. Um, [00:15:00] we need more strategic investments in the south. We need more progressive funding in the south. Um, and these folks write checks. And so I want them to know about me so that when they think about resource in the south, they don't just go on the internet, but they actually ask someone who lives in the south because I feel like a lot of times folks don't have the relationships that they could to make the investments that they're making be more impactful.

So that's why I'm here. 

Kendra: It's interesting what you're just talking about right now because who you're looking for here is who I am on a daily basis now that I am a social impact leader and people know that I do write checks. So I find that people are drawn to me and a lot of people want to meet with me.

We should meet. Okay, sure. You know, like, because I do have a checkbook that's not my own that I get to And it's like a weird kind of power shift that I'm not used to. Um, and it's not just because of my corporate role, but also like one of the boards I serve on, we also fund a lot of, um, [00:16:00] a lot of important cultural assets.

And I don't have the power to just be like, Hey, here's a check. But you know, I'm on a board that makes this, makes some really important decisions and it's a, it's a government official position. So it's interesting cause I've been on the other side and it also does cause me to have a little bit more.

empathy for those groups of people and why they sometimes are protective of their energy because all, like, sometimes I don't go to events at home because it's just draining because I know I'm going to be like, A lot of people like, Oh, we should this, we should do that. I mean, you know, people looking for jobs and I'm happy to help, but emotionally I do get drained and my, my social battery dies out really quickly.

Chiyah: Yeah. 

Kendra: How about you? Why did, why are you here? 

Chiyah: Well, I came for the girls trip of it all. No, but as, uh, you know, the days got closer and just, it's Martha's Vineyard. I don't know anything about Martha's Vineyard other than, you know, More than, but the Obama's vacation there, but you know how you can just throw that line out there because it's this place on the East coast where Black people beach.

But [00:17:00] as the days, um, got closer, just seeing footage of people on the beach, I'm in LA and it's very easy in certain parts of LA to forget that we're still only six to 8 percent of the population. And in this last year or so, maybe because of where I am in my life and my singleness, I've just been very aware of how few Black people there actually are, especially in spaces that I want to move in.

Um, and so I was really excited to be. In a space where there's going to be lots of Black folk and then Black people with my education level. I I'm on an Island in my life, you know? So that's where you guys in single Black men, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kendra: Y'all have to see her. She's looking very, um, fabulous in this yellow number is giving Beyonce lemonade era.

All right. So let's get into the group chat. 

Kelli: I mean, y'all woke me up and had me in a rage this morning. Um, because these people have [00:18:00] taken, uh, Jordan's metal away. Um, and my first instinct was, you know, every time we seem to flex a little too much confidence. We going to get a reminder 

Kendra: And they hate her anyway because she is so unapologetically herself, unapologetically Black.

She had grills on it on, you know, flipping. 

Kelli: I mean, I've just, I've not watched the Olympics, so there's that, but I have. Watched these young Black women on my timeline walk in confidence, even when they weren't confident, right? Like watching Simone talk openly about her mental well being and how she's learned to prioritize that in front of on the world stage.

I'm seeing grown ass Black women who are like, wow, that's really a reminder for me. That I need to do the same thing, right? That watching these young people, um, [00:19:00] really live out what we've hoped for ourselves with such courage and boldness, I think has just been really exciting for folks. Um, and so just sending her a lot of love.

Cause I know that that was an awful experience for her. And there are so many Black women who can relate to that, who've been in that position where they were elevated and then. someone didn't like the way they did it, or someone didn't like their confidence, and then they snatched it back from them. And so I would imagine in my timeline, there's a lot of Black women saying, we've been there, we know what she's feeling.

Um, and so, yeah, I wasn't happy when I woke up and heard that.

Kendra: I think the all Black podium was too much to bear. It's one thing. I think it's one thing that you're celebrating before, you know, you're officially, you've officially won, right? That was, And then you got your bubble bursted. I have empathy for that feeling of that person, but then it wasn't just that particular gymnast or, you know, the one right [00:20:00] behind them who also, I thought they were tied for third or whoever it is, but I think an all Black, all Black podium.

And then Jordan and Simone and all them celebrating the fact, the bow with Rebecca, most powerful image coming out of us, out of gymnastics period on the Olympics this year, right? Um, seeing them celebrate seeing Simone saying she loves her Black job. You know, I think all of that got under their nail.

Like, I don't care. I don't care if we don't win the medal, we can't give them this. And this is their one vulnerability that we get to expose because obviously Simone and Rebecca, they couldn't do anything with them. Um, it's very troublesome. And I know people are going to say, Oh, here they go again with the race car is technicalities and this and that and that.

But I do think the Black excellence and the Olympics this year, just across the board has been wild. It's been and it's been so beyond Jordan, beyond the USA. So diasporic, the beautiful runner from Ireland, Black woman. [00:21:00] Um, you know. The, the talked about basketball player from France, Black man, who also plays in France and in the United States, you know, we've just been dominating and I think people were like, okay, I'm, we sick of them.

I mean, I don't want to be reductive, but I do think there has a lot to that. 

Kelli: And mostly Barack can say it all out, right? So then it becomes y'all just making it up. 

Kendra: Ain't nobody saying that. Yeah. And like people, and this goes back to my conversation about politics, religion, pop culture, even our recent conversation about Martha's Vineyard.

Yeah. People will flatten whatever we say. There's a lack of nuance in conversations and to say that like, yes, there could have been technical things. Jordan could have made mistakes. And this other element is still present in the world, right? Like, just like we say, like, are having a good time here and there is a purpose here and we are part of this mix of folks, but at the same time, and this makes us feel a certain way and that's okay too.

I think if, if nothing else, I hope that this podcast plants a seed [00:22:00] of, of going deeper and not just. Leaving things in the group chat and leaving things open up for, for, for wrong interpretation, leaving, only taking things from TikTok and leaving it there. We can, yes, yes, Dr. Kaia, you can, you can stay on TikTok, but then how do we, like, How do we go deeper?

How do we allow for more nuance and conversations about stuff like this? Because it feels like, oh, it's just a metal. It's not a big deal. It actually, it absolutely is. Yeah. Because every time you let them chip away at something and act like we don't care. 

Kelli: Mm hmm. 

Kendra: Yep. You know what I mean? They're building, they're building an arsenal.

Chiyah: Mm hmm. And in this case, it's one, it's the very felt experience of it's not. Subjective. Yeah. Like the, the mistake was not about, Oh, she did this. No, it is. You didn't give me the credit that I deserved from the outset. Like you didn't use the, the right rubric for me. And like, that is what's frustrating me even just, you know, like my brain lets me focus on the little technical things and what I see on Twitter [00:23:00] or Tik Tok, like the happening of it.

But when I sit with like, what's going on, like I'm my, now I'm upset. 

Kendra: Yeah. Yeah. Cause it's not like she didn't do the thing. 

Chiyah: Right. It's just, you didn't, you didn't start me at the right place because why, who knows? Yeah. 

Kendra: And they probably, and I'm wondering if somebody actually recognized that before USA Gymnastics even said anything.

Chiyah: Like in that minute and four seconds? 

Kendra: Like I'm wondering if even the, the, the, the judges would have gotten away with it. Like, do you really believe that the judges, nobody in the judges noticed that they, that she. 

Chiyah: That they didn't give her the right difficulty. 

Kendra: Like out of everything. Like that's it. That you have one job.

I don't know. It's just something nefarious about it to me. Hmm. 

Kelli: Interesting. 

Kendra: And maybe I'm just being protective Black auntie. I don't know. 

Kelli: It's okay. You can be both, right? 

Kendra: Both and. 

Kelli: Both and. 

Chiyah: But that also is what happens when we [00:24:00] live, you know, with white supremacy and racism, though. Like we I had to have a conversation earlier because someone was asking me about going to my grad school, so it's bringing up all kinds of things, but it was then that I realized that I discount all the things that could possibly be related to race and racism, because no, like, survival is, no, surely.

It's not because of Blackness. That has nothing to do with this right now. So yeah, why would they start her at a lower score? Which would eliminate the possibility of beating anyone. Because if she executes it, this Black girl will win. But if, so yeah, sure, possibly. But I have to discount that and say, no, no, no.

Like, my experience as a woman in America. 

Kendra: Because, because, you know why? The same, we talked about Kelli in the other episode where we feel like, Black mothers or Black grandmas would sometimes chop you down to size and they do it because if they don't do what the world would do it sometimes we do that to ourselves as a defense mechanism because if we don't that somebody else will come back and say Here y'all go about race again So we always question ourselves like it maybe [00:25:00] before I settle on this white supremacy thing Let me find all poke all the holes I can in my argument because if I don't do it, they're gonna do it Mm hmm.

That's what it means to be a Black educated woman. 

Kelli: Yeah 

Kendra: PhDs and PsyDs and all these things. It's like, we're always questioning whether we know basic ass information right in front of our face. 

Kelli: When you're out, when you're the smartest person in the room. 

Kendra: Child, don't get me started on that. 

Kelli: Um, I think the other thing that was, uh, kind of popping for us this week was, uh, Brittany Cooper's Instagram.

Now, Professor Crook has been on vacation, but has been really putting out some very Thoughtful pieces on nuance, um, that I've really appreciated. So I just pulled up her last one that I thought was really interesting. 

Kendra: And while you do that, let's just say she ain't really been on vacation. She was grieving.

Kelli: Was she? 

Kendra: Her mother passed away. I didn't know that. Like a, like a year ago. And so she has been off social media because she's, she's been [00:26:00] wrestling with grief. 

Kelli: Oh, wow. 

Kendra: This was enough to say, you know what? Let me come on up out. 

Kelli: Interesting. Yeah, she, she started by coming out, just talking about like how we can critique.

We can affirm Kamala and we can also critique her, but we need to be mindful of how Black women are critiqued, right? In that, and I really appreciated that. But there was something that she said that I thought was really interesting, which was, All or nothing thinking and fundamentalism is a problem on both the left and the right.

And I need my people on the left to really sit with that because we do so much critique of the far right, but don't take responsibility for their all or nothing attitude. Like, if I don't believe everything that The far left believes then I'm not progressive enough. I'm not left enough. I'm a centrist. I'm a [00:27:00]conservative clown. Yeah. And just throw it all out. And it's like, no, like I'm a complex human being. There are some things that I'm like, I'm right with you. And there are others, I'm like, maybe not so much. And I really hope that what Brittany was offering is something that people will sit with and really digest, because I think that our fundamentalism on the left, and I say our, because I get, you know, kind of brought into that, um, I think it is doing us a very large disservice, particularly right now.

Kendra: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I actually, there are people who's who are academics and artists, um, who I. largely respect and who are leftists and I mean there are people who think I'm left I mean there's there's always a left a left ear to get to right but um who have been saying things like why are you using Kamala Harris and massage noir in the same sentence?

Because that's not what this is in the [00:28:00] representation that she's still a demon. And, but yet again, how are you, these brilliant PhD people don't recognize the nuances to say that, like, yes, she's in the war machine as a part of being anybody who wants to be the president of the United States is signing up to be a head of the war machine.

And if you're not, then you're going to end up on your, on your behind. You're going to lose. You're going to lose. Not to say I'm for that, or I think that's right. I'm just, that's what it is. And misogynoir is a real thing and she's going to experience it. She is experiencing every day of her life and she will continue to do so.

And that's the stuff that frustrates me to say that because of this, this can't be true because of that, this can't be true. And it is, I think Brittany Cooper is spot on. It is basic of fundamentalism. And it's very hard to like get to the other side and get our marching orders when we get, when we are stuck there.

Kelli: Yeah. And that her other point, which was voting for Kamala doesn't mean I support her empire. Right? Saying, I'm going to vote for Kamala because I don't want that fool to be president again is [00:29:00] not saying I don't care what's happening in the rest of the globe. 

Kendra: Yeah. It's all complicated to me, right?

Because some of these, like, I tell people all the time, I am considered middle class, I guess, you know, I'm of a certain, 

Kelli: not the way my budget looking, 

Kendra: I'm of a certain tax bracket or whatever, whatever, and I'm still anti capitalist. Yeah. And just like these people. I know if those universities and those, those speaking gigs and those poetry gigs and all that stuff, if they don't pay, they don't show up.

So we're all complicit. Yeah. Um, and not to say that I'm not comparing you getting your check to someone in war, but I'm saying is we're all complicit and we all have to check ourselves. And that, that self check of being anti capitalist and being in a capitalist system. Being, you know, anti racist, but living in and working in an anti, in a racist country, in a racist industry is something we all have to do every day.

And. I would like us to move towards encouraging people to be self reflexive across the [00:30:00]board, not just at the highest heights. I used to have this debate with my good friend Abbey about Like the Beyonce's of the world where people, before she started really speaking out, Ooh, look, let's see how Dr. Chiyah had to popped up when I said Beyonce.

I actually popped up because you mentioned my twin Abby. Oh yeah. Abby, shout out to Abby Dobson. Um, we used to have a conversations debates about, um, who has, what is the responsibility of the artists, especially we were in this, like James Baldwin space together, and there was a certain, um, onus that we were putting on people like Beyonce to come out and speak about things before she was actually doing that.

In her own way or whatever. And I was like, Why are we putting onus on people at the top upper echelon and not people in our own space? They're like, well, they have a certain platform. I'm like, but we do too, right? Like, it may not be amplified to that amount, but like, people are definitely watching us. So how are we expecting other people to show up in the world in a particular way that we're not?

I know people who are talking about free Palestine and are nasty as hell. Mm hmm. And I know it's not the same, but it is. It's like [00:31:00] recognizing humanity in everyone is all of our jobs. All of our jobs. If we want more people to recognize humanity in everyone, we have to live that more and more every day.

If I can't even acknowledge you, if I see you on the street and you act, you, you, you look at me, no, I'm not talking about having a bad day. But if you don't think me worthy of a conversation with you, what makes you think somebody who's halfway across the world are going to be thought of as a human when you don't even see your, your brother, your sister, your neighbor, your, your nib, you know, as a neighbor, as a, as a human.

And I think You know, really leaning into each other's humanity is something we all have to do a better job of. 

Kelli: Yeah. And I think we, I want us to also just acknowledge like, yes, we all may dream of something better, but it's not, it's not right now. It's going to take time to build. Right. And so what are we doing in the meantime?

Like we just go sit and wait for the glory day to come. Like, no, like there is work to be done right now that we, we should be doing and not, you know, Sitting out because we think, you know, what [00:32:00] y'all, what y'all air quotes are doing is not worthy. Of my time, because it's not the end goal. Like there's steps to get to the end goal.

And as one of my clients said this week, people say, you know, they don't want to work, but you are always going to have to figure out a way to eat, right? No matter what society you are dreaming of, labor will be a part of it. Now, it may not be oppressive labor, but labor will be a part of it, and we're going to have to wrap our heads around that.

Like, to build the world that we want is going to require work, and we all need to start getting ready for that. 

Kendra: And I don't think people think work doesn't require work, and actually there is something to be said about drawing a line in the sand, right? Sometimes you got to shut shit down to get where you got to go.

Like, cause we've been hearing incrementalism, incrementalism, incrementalism, incrementalism. We've been hearing that, but we have to build something together. Like, okay, what do we want it to look like on the other side? Once we tear the shit down, because if you just tear the shit down and keep it moving, it's just going to be toe up.[00:33:00]

And we want, we want to follow, we want the fall of empire. Okay, great. What do we want to build together? 

Kelli: I've not heard very clear examples of that. 

Kendra: Now I'm not saying they need to have a whole plan. I'm not saying give me, I'm not saying I need project 2025, the leftist version. No, but what is it? But you want people.

to, to stand in agreement with you, but they don't know what you actually want them, what you want, what you want to see alternative. Yeah. And so you have to build trust, just like you want people to build trust with you. You have to build trust. And this is not exclusively to leftists or radicals. This is to everybody.

Yeah. 

Kelli: Yeah. I mean, I think other than project 2025. We don't always have a line by line situation and their plan is overwhelming. Like y'all going to do all that. 

Kendra: And there's pieces that are missing. They said there's pieces that are not, they purposely have not made public. 

Kelli: Yeah. I was like, well, y'all want to do all of that.

Right. But it is, it's, it's thorough, but it's all, it is my critique of progressive, you know, philanthropy. Right. It's [00:34:00] like, they don't fund, like they want to win and actually help people construct and come together to figure out what, what our actual plan is. Um, do we know that this late stage capital isn't working for anyone except for the top two percent?

Yeah, I think we're all pretty clear about that. 

Kendra: The bottom line is is that the way we fight Is everybody playing their position? James Bald was sent this a long time ago. Yeah. I I'm not asking, I'm not asking you to write a song because that's not what you do. I'm asking you to do what you do. We do need people on the frontline seeing, saying, ceasefire, we do need the, the, the kids on the campuses camping out.

We do need the people feeding, the, making sandwiches and feeding people. We need everybody. Mm-Hmm. . What we, what we don't need is to ask the person who, who may save us from project 2025 to, to act as if they are on the front lines with. in this particular moment. That's not going to give us what we need.

It's good if symbolically it might feel good, but it's not going to give us what we need because we're [00:35:00] already sacrificing. We already lost Cori Bush. We're already lost. We're like, we're, we're already seeing in the which to me is even more devastating. These like These Congress people, 

Kelli: but Cori was, I said, Cori had the Holy Ghost at her, at her speech and she brought her white suit out.

She was like, let me tell you something right now. Y'all done just made it worse. She had a preacher voice. She was like, Nope. She was like, I was supposed to lose this race. 

Kendra: We need her on the front line. I don't necessarily want, even if she don't win, I don't necessarily want Harris on the front line.

She's, she's not going to get what a Cori's going to get. 

Kelli: No, she's not. She's not. She can't. That's not who she is. 

Kendra: All right, we can stop talking about this now. 

Chiyah: What were you gonna say? That was just funny to me. What? Yeah, we can stop talking about this thing. 

Kendra: Yeah, cause this is gonna go out, this is like a rabbit hole of geopolitical blah, blah, blah.

Kelli: Definitely 

gonna be our first very active 

group chat on Instagram. 

Kendra: Here's a capitalist me. I ain't made no money off of this yet. I need to make some money before I burn the [00:36:00] whole shit down. I'm with you on that. 

Kelli: If you would like to sponsor This Womanist Work podcast, please see us in the DMs. 

Kendra: So what else are we gonna do? We got a couple more days here in the vineyard.

What's next? 

Kelli: Um, we're gonna start gallivanting with the people. Um, we've kind of been in our bubble today, which was really nice. Um, we're gonna branch out and be in community with Our peers. Um, I hope we'll eat some good food and drink some good wine while we're here. I'm not really with my fellow wine drinkers.

Nicole Irvin, I wish you were here. I drink wine. Don't do that. Don't do me. Shay, dude, you had a cute little squishy thing today. It looked very tasty. Um, are y'all listening to this, this foolishness? But I think it'll be a good couple of days. Um, I'm sure there'll be some more shopping involved. What about 

Kendra: How about you, Chiyah? What you looking forward to? 

Chiyah: Well, you had mentioned tomorrow while Kelli is [00:37:00] doing all of her conference things, if we're not, if we don't make it in there, going to do the ink, you know, to inkwell and, oh, you wanna go to the beach? Mm-Hmm. . 

Kendra: I definitely have to leave her with an Inkwell sweatshirt. 

Chiyah: But I also, I had, I spent one miserable year in Boston during my internship and I made my Boston bestie jewel.

So I actually get to see her on Tuesday. She's gonna try to come up Awesome to, so that'll be nice. 

Kelli: Aw. She didn't even have kids when you was in grad school. 

Chiyah: We had planned to have a wonderful time together because we met and were like each other. And we had one beautifully drunken night, like you wake up in the morning like, why is there pizza on my, my gear shift?

And then like, She got pregnant like two weeks later and it changed all of the plans. 

Kendra: Wow. Was, was the drunken night involved in how she got pregnant? 

Chiyah: No, she graduated or something. 

Kendra: I'm just joking. 

Chiyah: But no, because, because we had the story for like, there wasn't an actual instance. [00:38:00]Okay, we're not telling your business, 

Kendra: Jules.

Trust. 

Kelli: Yeah. 

Kendra: Okay. Yeah, I'm looking forward to hanging out, doing more shopping, buy some souvenirs for my family. This is one place I would actually buy somebody a t shirt from. 

Kelli: Okay. 

Kendra: Um, and 

Kelli: We need a lobster roll in clam chowder. Yes, we've had some good lobster. Yeah, 

Kendra: yeah. More lobster, more Prosecco, more Aperol Spritzes.

Any takeaways, even though, what was we talking about today? We talked about, we inter, we introduced our, our, our lovely sister, Dr. Kaia A. Lawrence to the pod. 

Kelli: We did. We did. I think my takeaway is on holding the duality of the Black bourgeoisie as both being proud of who they are and what they've accomplished and sometimes a little elitist.

And I need you to stop saying they. We, we are proud of who we are. Okay. And sometimes we can be a little bit elitist. 

Kendra: Yeah, that was my takeaway. My [00:39:00] takeaway is that I'm talking cash, money, shit. And I am implicated in the conversation. 

Kelli: We are implicated in the conversation. 

Kendra: Have I said shit too much this episode?

Are we going to be like, parental advisory? 

Kelli: No, because you don't have the Holy Ghost. 

Kendra: Oh, wait. Yeah. This has to go in the pod, y'all. So, we were at brunch this morning in Eggertown and said we were gonna go to the church at the Tappanaco and Oaks Bluff with the Bougie Blacks for church today. And it was getting down to the eleventh hour, and we said, are we gonna still go to church?

And we said, maybe not. And Kelli said, and I quote, that's okay, and I quote, I don't got the Holy Ghost anyway. laughter 

Chiyah: So she was asking are we actually are we gonna pop by the service? 

Kendra: I don't have a preference. 

Kelli: I don't have the Holy Ghost. I'm here or there (laughter) what happened? I said I don't have the Holy Ghost.

Chiyah: Did you-- when? Did you not? 

Kelli: I'm here or there. Like, I don't care. I mean, I don't care about 

Did that hurt [00:40:00] your feelings? 

Leatra Tate: That's a soundbite. 

Kelli: I didn't mean it in that way. I'm just saying I don't have it that I have to be at the service because 

That's all me. I activated the church girls right there.

Chiyah: You did. 

Kelli: I said I activated the church girls right there. That vexed their snacks. 

Kendra: No, I wasn't vexed. I was just confused. Confused. What's wrong with this? 

Kelli: No, I just meant like, I'm hit or miss. Like, you can go, you don't have to tell me. That's all I'm saying. 

Kendra: Well, you're honest. I don't know the last time I've been in one, but I'm just saying, like.

Kelli: So you have some kind of feeling you don't have to tell me. It's just loud, it's just like, I don't have to tell you. Tell me. 

Don't let let Miss Joyze rise up. Child, that's, that's, that's COGIC. That's why she was in the class. 

Chiyah: Yeah, 

Kendra: She was in the class, so that ain't bad. She was a sibling to God.

She was. [00:41:00] She was a sibling to God. Yeah. Remember the Jay, that Jay Z meme? What type of mess is that? 

Kelli: I was just trying to say, I did not have to go to church. Kelli, 

Kendra: Kelli ain't had a holy ghost job. 

Kelli: That's all I meant. That's all I meant. But yes, I mean, it is, we are, we are the bougie Blacks and we do have to own that.

So that is the takeaway. 

Kendra: Nothing, nothing else coming on here to complain about people and realize we are the people. 

Chiyah: We are the people. Well, that was going to be my takeaway. Like Kendra, you had mentioned like having empathy because in someone's experience or story we are the person that made them feel like they shouldn't be or whatever it might Whatever the case might be.

Kendra: That's like the story of Nathan and David. Okay, now I was gonna say I didn't even check in that I was in Martha's Vineyard because I knew somebody was gonna be like what's your bougie ass doing in Martha's Vineyard? So there's a story in the Bible where where Nathan is friends with David and going on and on about the salacious behavior and and in the end Nathan as [00:42:00] his friend to David says David You are that man.

Kelli: Hmm. 

Kendra: Okay. Wait, here it is. Second Samuel 12. I got the verse. 

Kelli: You reading the Bible? 

Chiyah: Nathan and David. 

Kendra: Newly, this is the New Living Translation. Second Samuel chapter 12 verse 7. Then Nathan said to David, You are that man, the Lord, the Son of Man. The, the Lord, the God of Israel says, I anointed you King of Israel and saved you from the power of Saul.

Chiyah: That's just the best recovering church girl moment ever though. Like first mention of David and Nathan made my heart smile. Like, Oh, look at that. The Bible, the scripture is lovely. 

Kendra: Yeah. Child, I, I was, I'm familiar here and there. I know a couple of things, you know, some scriptures, the devil know the Bible better than anybody else.

Remember how they used to say the devil, the devil know the Bible to anybody. I'm not the devil, by the way. No. I am not. That's, that's the name of the, that's the theme of this, of this episode. 

Kelli: You are that man. 

Kendra: You are who you're [00:43:00] talking about. 

Kelli: Yeah. 

Kendra: The call is coming from inside the house. Oh, so painful, but so true.

You got to start this episode with the sound of like a ringing phone. 

Chiyah: Well, thank y'all for having me on the podcast. What's your takeaway? She already said her takeaway. You ain't even be listening. I didn't say her takeaway. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Well, cause it was all the same. We had the same takeaway. 

Kendra: We are that men.

Chiyah: Even though I still have a little room to reject that man yet, because I haven't arrived. 

Kendra: What does that mean? So many people, don't, don't be fooled. Like if people looked at me, they could look at my little house and my little beat up eight year old car or whatever like that, or a six year old, they wouldn't think I was the man.

Kelli: So they see him fancy shoes. 

Kendra: Don't get caught up in what you see because you, you may be more of the man than you think.

Oh, wait, do you have any hand washcloths? Washcloths, I got you, so thank you. Okay. All right. [00:44:00]

Kelli: I mean, she comes back. Huh? 

Girl, if you don't put them towels down. Come on.

Do you speak Portuguese? Hello and goodbye is good. Come on. 

Kendra: Girl, I'm trying to maintain the household at the same time. Yo, suitcase all in the way. Oh, hold on. We're getting new washcloths. 

Kelli: Black people need washcloths. 

Kendra: They didn't bring us no washcloths. 

The folks bringing us some washcloths, y'all. 

Kelli: But can we talk about the fact that Black people use washcloths?

I'm surprised they even have them in hotels. Because I don't know what other people use washcloths for. If you go to Europe, 

Kendra: and if you go like, whenever I go to London, I have to washcloths. I have to specifically ask for them because they do not give you watch files in London. I'll be like so what do y'all be doing?

Chiyah: Well, apparently they don't [00:45:00] here either because two of our watch files are Black and not hotel white Well, those are for makeup 

Kendra: Yeah, no a lot of hotels now put Black because people been messing up their watch files with their own makeup How do you know this? Have you met me?