Kendra: [00:00:00] The views shared in this episode represent Kelli and Kendra, not our mamas, partners, church, job, or sponsors.

Tanika: I feel like we need to start off with a word of prayer. 

Kendra: See this is what I'm talking about. 

Kelli: Now, you know, we don't always have the Holy Ghost over here. 

Kendra: And keep in mind, Tanika, the recorder was already pressed. I'm going to tell you now, Leatra is going to find a way to put that in. I know how she get down.

Leatra: And will.

Kelli: Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. We are excited to have our first official guest at the time of this recording. a friend of ours who, uh, we will introduce shortly, but we hope that you're enjoying the podcast [00:01:00] so far and commenting in the group chat on things you want us to talk about in the future.

So join us in welcoming Tanika Harris, who It's new to some, but known to many. I thought I'd kick it off with a question. Tanika, what is your first memory of meeting both I and Kendra? 

Tanika: So thank you for having me. Uh, the first memory of meeting Kelli King Jackson specifically is through Kendra and working at the United Methodist Church and the general agency for mission and.

You specifically blew me away with your love and an intellect and your compassion for human beings. And so we were working on a developing a program for young people. [00:02:00] And it's funny because I know you all talk about your group chat. I am also in a group chat with all of my mentors from global ministries.

Um, And so I am the youngest in that group chat and the age next is a 72 so it ranges from 72 to 82. And it is an amazing group chat and we were just talking about you. And one of the things that they talked about is how important it was for us to start a young people program. For the youth by the youth, the youth need to be doing this.

And so that was my first memory of meeting Kelli and Kendra. I don't even remember not Kendra not being in my life, uh, because Kendra and I go back to nursery at, at the time, Macedonia Baptist church in Pittsburgh, um, singing in a kid's choir together. Funny story, though, about Kendra. We had to wear Black and white.

Typical, typical, right? That was the uniform for ushering and for singing in the choir. Black bottoms, white tops. And at [00:03:00] that time, we had to wear skirts for the ladies and for the gentlemen. They had to wear pants and it was, that's what the uniform was. And that was mandated. Kendra, Kendra wore Black and white striped top, a Black bottom, and she said, because you said Black and white, and I'm wearing Black and white.

And this was elementary Kendra. So, so Kendra has been consistent in all her ways, in all her ways. So those, that is, that is a funny memory that I have. Kendra has always been who she is. 

Kendra: Hey, what can, what can I say? 

Kelli: I love it so much. I'm curious for, we'll start with you Ken, what is the difference between y'all as church girlfriends back then and y'all as recovery church girls friends now?

Kendra: Well, Tanika is very much still, she, she, she's still very much holy church girl. Holy? [00:04:00] Holy, holy, what they say holiness is still right. Not to say I'm not holy, but she's still very much more, she's more, She has a critique of the, of the church, particularly the Black church, because that's where we're from.

Don't get me wrong. She's not just acquiescing to the, to the, to the nonsense, but, uh, she's a lot, she has a lot more empathy and a lot more patience, particularly with the patriarchy than I do. And then our other dear best friend, sister Danelle has. Um, but our journey has been a very interesting one. So like Tanika said, we grew up in church together.

I've known Tanika since she was not even in elementary school. Which she probably was in kindergarten or less. And I was one of those kids that if I was older than you, I don't care if I was six months older than you, I was older than you. And I was like, who's this little girl? You can't, you can't hang with me.

I'm two years older than you. What you talking about? So I, you know, I was more like, uh, you know, the mean big cousin type, you know, to the younger ones. Uh, uh, and, but you know, we grew up together and it was just, you know, more like family [00:05:00] than anything. And then as we got older, I was living in New York, as you know, Kelli, you were my roommate, and eventually Tanika moved to New York to go to college.

And I won't get into all the steamy details of her winding road of life, but she ended up returning to New York and our relationship grew even closer. Um, she was going, she was working for Lashee City United Methodist Church. She was going to, she eventually joined Brown Memorial, the church that I went to in Brooklyn.

And her children, um, who grew up partially there in Brooklyn at that church are my nieces and nephews, at least all three of them are, but the older two were there with us in Brooklyn. And so it was just family. She's my, she became my sister. So we've been through all the ups, the highs, the highs and the lows and the lows.

Um, and so our, our, our relationship evolved in church spaces, both as a child and as an adult. And now also we are in addition to being family business partners as well. I got, so I like to do, I'm like many people. I like to do business with my friends. I have a business with Kelli and I [00:06:00] have a business with Tanika.

You, you bold and courageous.

Tanika: I'm discerning. 

Kelli: Oh, 

Kendra: because it ain't everybody. But anyway, go ahead, Kel. Sorry. 

Kelli: So Tanika, did that feel like accurate for where y'all are now from where you started? 

Tanika: Absolutely. 

The only thing I will add is that discerning Kendra is, she is very discerning, but she's also extremely patient because I was a lot to deal with.

I was a lot. And, um, not intentionally a lot, but because of. Early on as a child in the church. And what I will say is my mother was very religious. And it's different than spiritual. Um, my mother is no longer with me. Um, so, I can say what I want. No, I'm just playing. Um, my mom is no longer with me. And, [00:07:00] yes.

Um, and, Don't let the aunties, don't let the aunties talk for you. I know, I know. So, wait, wait. Yes, Shirley Jean is no longer with me, but she was very religious, uh, but she did the best that she could. And so, growing up in a very religious household, I, um, did not understand, I didn't have critical thinking skills, and so I just did what I was told, and never thought through any issues.

Implications and what could happen. And so I made some very interesting decisions from teenage years through young adult years working and still trying to figure it out. And the beauty of it is once I hit rock bottom, I looked up and Kendra was still there. Many people left, but Kendra's remained. Now I'm sure I caused a few gray hairs, a lot of extra stress and all the things, but that, that I know, and I can say that that was also largely part of her upbringing as well.

[00:08:00] Um, it didn't feel good to her, but she never left. And, and that was very, very helpful. 

I appreciate you. Don't have me crying on my own podcast, but I'm also not. A walk in the park. I feel like I've gotten better and more amenable and more, I'm, it's, it's wild. I'm deeply patient. Long term patient. In the short time, in the moment, I am not patient at all.

I've gotten, I've had to work at that. Um, and so, you know, it wasn't, it just wasn't a one way street. 

Kendra: Can I, can I just, can I take a step back and ask a question? Yeah. Tanika Harris, who are you? 

Tanika: I am a disruptor. I am a recovering, a recovering people pleaser. And, um, I'm a woman of faith. I have great faith, immense faith.

And, um, it's so funny because you're asking me who [00:09:00] I am. Um, and I remember Even five years ago, if you asked me that, I would say, well, I'm a teenage mom and I'm this, right? And so I would throw all those labels in there and I can gladly say with, uh, my faith and therapy, I have a sense of who I am and who I'm not, and my decisions don't define who I am anymore.

Kelli: Ooh, come on in here. I need a hanky. Oh my God. I need a hanky. 

Tanika: No, stop it. Like, And it would be different if you all didn't know my story, and didn't know my children, and all the things, and there were times when we were in Puerto Rico, we were working at the United Methodist Church, and I'm down there with you all, and my daughter was at home being abused.

And you know, and so we still had to like just show up and, and I, and I didn't even realize what was happening. And so those are things that I've had to reckon with and understanding that. And, um, [00:10:00] and so, yeah, like this is, this is not fake. This is what it is. And this is my authentic journey. And, and, but also recognizing that I had people in my life who did not give up on me.

And I know that was divine as well. Because. nobody but the big God. And not this little guy that we put in this little box where nobody, but the big God would allow a Tameka to have people like a Kelli and a Kendra and a Danelle to be in my circle. So like that, I don't take that lightly. 

Kendra: Can I ask one more question, Kelli?

Kelli: Yeah. 

Kendra: So you talked about being a woman of faith, and you talked about being raised in a very religious home. And we can talk about your own spiritual walk in a minute, but can you talk about the role that the church has played in shaping who you are, both as a child, young adult, and as a current adult, and how the church shows up in your life?

Tanika: Can I be honest? Like I'm, it's still, it's still shaping me. So from where I was [00:11:00] at Macedonia, and that's what I remember, I know we were at another church prior to Macedonia. But at Macedonia, we were the poor family. Um, we were the family that the church helped and everybody helped. What Kendra didn't say is like, I used to get her hand me downs, her indanels, shoes and clothes, up until I was bigger than both of them.

And that was a sad day. 

Kendra: But see, I don't remember that. I don't remember. 

She keeps telling me that. 

Tanika: I had all y'all hand me downs. 

Kelli: Because, because mamas don't always tell, right? Our mamas be, they don't want to bring embarrassment. Well, let me just say, my mother, she don't want to bring embarrassment. So she gonna slip it to you, but she not gonna, you know, tell the whole church.

And so sometimes I think our families were doing things for others and in community that we will have no idea ever. 

Tanika: Yeah. And yeah, so like we were that family that The church helped often. And when I say the church, I'm not talking about like the church, the institution, but the people, which is really what the church is.

So like my Lola, [00:12:00] right. Mommy Biggs

, like they helped the church helps us on a consistent basis. Uh, we have another friend, Tiffany, I was doing great. Her dad would pick us up, take us to church because we would catch three buses to get to church and all the activities. And on a Sunday, the bus didn't run.

Well, it was like every hour and a half. And so Tiffany's dad would come and pick us up and take us. And I remember there were many times after church service, he was a deacon at the church. He would then take us to the grocery store so we could get food. And I didn't realize until later, like he was making, he was buying food for us.

And that was happening weekly. So once I was able to articulate what was happening and I'm just like, wow, we're this, we're the family. And then I took a step back. a spin, not for the good, but I was just like, I need to prove that I belong. And, and I'm not, I'm no longer the family that needs to be helped.

I'm no longer the family that needs to be helped. And so I then began to become this other person that I really wasn't. [00:13:00] To try to conform and to prove how, look, like, I don't need, I don't need you all to help me anymore. I'm grateful for it. But look, I can hold my, I can hold my own, but dying on the inside, killing myself, trying to please and not saying no and doing all the things and trying to be this thing that I thought needed to be.

Um, the other piece in the church is that, um, what I was taught is that a whole family is a family with A mother, a father who are married and then the children and all those things. And here I come 15 and I pop up pregnant. And so I've already embarrassed my mother to the point. It's so not funny, but my mama was off the hook.

Y'all like Shirley Jean did not play. Wonderful woman of God. I tell you, but when I got pregnant, she left Macedonia because she said, I don't want to fool up with them folks. Cause they say something smart and I know they will. I'm going to be in here fighting. So my mother left the church and went to another church.

So I'm 15 [00:14:00] pregnant at this church by myself. And I continued to go because literally God just didn't tell me I needed to leave. And so I kept going, belly getting bigger. I'm still going. And what I knew is that. The whole family, the complete family looks like this, and this is what it should be. And I've already made a mockery of my mother and everything that she tried to instill in me.

Right. And then I go on this quest as into my young adult years, searching for a husband, because that was the goal. The goal was searching for a husband. I remember writing a paper in school because I went back to school. Um, cause I had, I did not finish from the first time I went. And one of the, one of my papers was talking about a whole family and being a whole, and that's what I wanted.

I wanted that so desperately. And my professor challenged me like a mug and I got mad at her and I walked out. And she was like, so you're telling me you're not whole right now. You're telling me you need to be in a relationship to be [00:15:00] whole. And I was like, yes, yes, because that's what I was taught. Like that's all I knew.

And I did not have the critical thinking skills that I really wish I had, but I didn't. And so that in my mind, just searching and searching and searching. And then what that did was it led me into one bad relationship after another relationship, but the intent for me was so pure. It was just, I really just wanted to be whole and I wanted to do what was right.

And I wanted to fix the wrong decisions that I made. Now, my daughter was not, there's nothing wrong about her, but I wanted to fix that wrong decision by having sex before marriage and having a child out of wedlock and all those things, right. That I was taught were so wrong. That should never ever happen.

And so I spent a lot of my years doing that and child, I kept getting pregnant because I was just a fertile myrtle. And so as I'm sitting here trying to, I'm trying to do right by the saints and everything, and my behind ended up pregnant two more times. [00:16:00] So it was like, you know what, one thing I know how to do is I know how to make a baby.

Uh, and so, you know, I'm just like, Oh my gosh, you know,

Kelli: Can I, can I ask you a question? Cause, um, this feels very tender to me, I think because of the work that we've done with young people. Can you tell me that how you dealt with the tension between the message you got from the institution of church and the message you got from these amazing humans who stepped in to model what it is to be the church, those young people who are now young adults, which is crazy.

Tanika: We're like almost older young adults. Now, um, they taught me so much. They taught me by allowing me into their world. And it was a world that I never knew was possible. Watching what they went through in their own individual lives and still showing up in ways, and they challenged me. On what the church really [00:17:00] is and how big God is.

And that was like, that was really my first view of, of the goodness and the, the glory of God watching them. I didn't fully understand it while I was in it. It took years. It took almost a decade once I left it. And I'm like, wow, I get it. Like I get it now just watching how, and even still how they still disrupt.

Like, I love following them on social media. I love watching their authentic selves blossom. Some are super duper duper duper churchy. Some are the exact opposite. And I love every aspect of every single one of them. And it is a blessing to watch. Oh my God. It's a blessing to watch. It is a blessing to watch.

Shout out to the OG Just Us Youth. 

Kelli: Yes. We love y'all. 

Tanika: And it's spelled Just Us, playing off of the word justice, just us. Advocacy at its finest. Yes.[00:18:00]

Leatra: I, uh, actually have something, so Tanika, you talked about being a recovering people pleaser. The show was built on being a recovering church girl. We talked about Kendra and discernment. So as I was listening, I was connecting all these pieces. I'm also listening to you tell your story at the beginning, uh, being pregnant at 15, but committing, I literally wrote this note, being pregnant at 15, but committed to church.

Because God didn't say it was time for you to leave. What has your journey of being a recovering people pleaser been like for you? What has come up in that? What has, you know, Emerge from that. What have you learned? What have you learned to appreciate maybe about yourself, um, in ways that you maybe hadn't, uh, until you had identified with that, that aspect of your, 

your, your journey?

Tanika: I learned that I am enough in any state that I'm in, that I'm enough, whether I'm in dealing with [00:19:00] depression or whatever, I'm still enough. I learned to really love my voice. And I think I touched on that a little bit because I didn't understand my voice and I wouldn't listen to it. And so listening to my voice and knowing what my voice.

Knowing, knowing what it is and the power that my voice has. I lean in on that now and I make decisions off of that. And that's something I would have never done five years ago. Right? Like hitting rock bottom, understanding what I was doing and having language because I didn't know I was a people pleaser because I would have told you I was not a people pleaser.

So that language is new. I'm just now learning. Like that's why I was making decisions that I was making. And so having that language now. I am able to like, there's this thing that I talk about having discernment and having discernment is lonely, especially because you can't always explain what I'm feeling, but I'm like, no, there's something there and we need to stay [00:20:00] away.

And I can't fully understand it. I don't have any facts to add to it to be able to, to make it make sense for somebody. But that discernment is what I know that I operate in. And so I make decisions in, in my entire life now or off of my discernment.

for the question. I think one of the things that I think has been a biggest theme of my, of my journey with therapy is around guilt and shame and the guilt and shame that just was unintentionally taught to me because everything was about going to hell. Right. And so this idea that I could set a boundary, even if somebody needed something for me that I could actually give in on the surface, if it was actually going to cost me something that I didn't have to give in inside, I was still, I was still doing it.

Right. And so I [00:21:00] had to really learn that, um, It is a gift to be able to set a boundary because there's an expectation of me. God doesn't have, cause God knows I, I was created in his image, but I ain't him or her or they, right? So God is God and I am Kelli. And that to Tanika's point, Kelli is enough. And so being okay with my enoughness means being able to set the boundary.

Even if somebody's going to be disappointed, somebody needs me, I have a resource. I am not available right now and being okay with that. So I feel grateful to be able to afford therapy. I feel grateful to have been able to find a therapist that was not in church and using church as the frame. Cause I was very intentional that I didn't need, I have, I know how to find a spiritual community.

That's not what I was looking for. I needed therapy. And so that has been, I think, [00:22:00] key to my being able to relieve. Know myself and, and be who I'm designed to be, not who I was created or shaped to be. 

Kendra: I will say that, um, as many of you know, I'm a pro I've been a professional student. I was one of those people that went to undergrad, and by the end, I was just like, I'm just trying to get out.

And then eventually, I started going back to school. And what really saved me, what really saved me and helped me really to find myself is Black feminist thought, reading Black feminist thinkers. Doing Black feminist work. I've been a Black feminist since I was a little girl and didn't even know it. As Tanika could tell you, I always, always talking that talking, walking that walk, but to wish, like she always says, I did not yet have the language.

And so discovering the language of Black feminists, not discovering Audre Lorde saying, if I didn't define myself for myself, I'd be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eating alive, hearing Zora Neale Hurston, who I consider, even though she didn't consider [00:23:00] herself a feminist necessarily, or use that language.

If you're silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it. Learning about intersectionality, learning about Patricia O'Connell, learning about bell hooks, bell hooks being so much of the way I think of you, the world is for through the lens of a bell hooks who, who both embrace her Christian upbringing and also made space for other ways of thinking and, and saw the, the intersections between, you know, the walk of Jesus and the Buddha.

Um, and yeah, You know, just to disrupt our understanding of what it means to be a Black woman and a Black family and a Black community and Black churches, Black feminists that helped shape that for me. And so now, you know, I deconstruct deconstructed a lot, deconstructed my position in my family, deconstructed my religion, deconstructed my relationship to place by coming back to leaving here and coming back.

And every place that I've detached myself from or wrestled with, I've always returned back to. But on my own terms, so my [00:24:00] relationship with God is on my own term, not, not as our disclaimer says, not my mama or my job or my family or my people or my partner or none of that. It's my relationship on my terms.

My relationship to the church is on my terms. My relationship to the academy is on my terms. My relationship to my corporate job is on my terms. And, um, Black Feminist Thought really did that for me. Uh, and Womanist Thought, you know, and, and womenists, this womanist work allows me to bring my church girl reality that is never gonna go away, right?

And my Black Feminist Thought together in a, in a space. And have my own exegesis, as they say, that my own kind of theological standpoint on the world. Yeah, so we talked a little bit about growing up in church and how that has formed you, and we talked about the work you've done with the youth in the church.

I'd love to talk about like post United Methodist Church and your relationship to the church. At your core, you're a community developer and a person who works in community, but you've done it in church spaces. [00:25:00] And can you talk to us about what that experience has been like and how it differs and or is similar to your other work in like non profit and community development spaces?

Tanika: How much time do we have left? Okay. 

Kelli: Take your time, take your time. 

Tanika: It's very different. And, um, I'm not going to go the toxic positivity route. So I want to be clear. Um,

I had the opportunity to work full time at a church for seven years. And working at the church that I grew up in and the job was created for me as a result of the way I was volunteering and the passion that I had and the skills that I had and the skills I acquired from working. And in that global faith based organization and coming home to do the work was even better working for a church.

I mean, it's not, it's not a mega church, [00:26:00] but, uh, at the time, and this is pre pandemic at the time, you know, we had over 4, 000 members on the roster where we had three services at one point. Then we, uh, mixed it to two. We took the pews out and had chairs. The pulpit became a stage. There's like, right. And so like going through that whole evolution, the, the one thing I will say is that I felt like I took a vow of poverty working there.

Um, and being very, very honest, um, my expenses outweighed my income the entire time for the entire seven years that I worked. And that was hard, very hard, but at the same time, nothing got turned off. And when I say nothing got turned off, like my, none of my utilities got turned off, my, my home was [00:27:00] still maintaining.

And in the words of my mother, by the grace of God, uh, so everything remained on now, it remained on from help with some people who were on this call. Um, but it also, you know, there were people who stood in the gap, the work that I did, I'm very proud of. And I'm proud and I'm, and I'm okay with saying that I'm proud.

I'm proud to have done that work. Uh, and the work was, um, it was fulfilling. It was gratifying immediately. I received immediate gratification, but it was also hard because what I was able to see is that the 80, 20 rule where 20 percent of the people do 80 percent of the work. And that was something that I talked about a lot.

Um, I talked about that a lot and it never felt right to me, but at the same time, [00:28:00] the leaders were incredible human people and not where are, but they are incredible human people. And I think that was probably the worst thing for me because I did not challenge things like I should have. I had a voice at the table and I did not use my voice.

to really help move things forward. And when I say that, I mean that, um, because a lot of the leadership were well intended men and they had the best intentions, but there were some things that needed to be fixed. And I didn't always feel comfortable saying that because I'm like, but they're so good. And they got so much on them.

They're dealing with so many things. But then I'm taking that on and I'm trying to fix some of these other pieces and I'm trying to cover and I'm [00:29:00] guarding the gift, right? That was my goal. And the gift didn't ask to be guarded by me.

So there's, there's, there's these things that, and these are revelations I've gained since I've been gone. I've been gone for what, three and a half years now. And so I've, I've been able to understand that. Um, the other pieces is just understanding that I did not negotiate well for myself. Um, And that came out as I was leaving and, um, I left on, on good terms, I did not leave in a bad way, but I did leave abruptly and, and I'm okay with sharing that.

It was a Sunday and literally after service ended, there was a well inside of me, like well, and I just started screaming, crying at the, I mean, literally crying at the top of my lungs. And, and what I now understand it was more of a purging that was happening and I could not stop crying. I couldn't shake it.

On my way home, I received text messages from [00:30:00] two leaders in the church and separate text messages, but the same exact message, the same exact message. They don't know to this day. They don't know that they both sent me the same message. I never shared that with them. And God was just like, your time is up.

And that well was more like morning because it was like, because being there was comfortable for me. It was comfortable because it was familiar, not because it was good for me. And so what I knew was being in that familiar place. And even if it didn't feel good, it was familiar. And I knew what to expect and, and, and all of that.

Right. And so that evening I went to my group chat and was just like, y'all it's time. It's time. It's time. It's time. God spoke to me very clearly. It was just like, your assignment is up. And that I was a hindrance to the growth of the ministry. And I'm like, [00:31:00] well, that's jacked up. Like how, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm doing whatever.

And it was just like, I needed to be removed. So that way those who are in leadership can see with full eyes, because I kept. Fixing things. I was that Olivia Pope and I was always fixing and fixing. And so I needed to be, I needed to remove so that way the church can truly grow. And that was hard for me to take on.

But then the other side of it is this, I have three children. My youngest is 15. He had the privilege to grow up in that space. And that has helped him so much because. It also helped me as a parent. I didn't have to worry about being at work at a certain time. I didn't have to worry about those things. I didn't have to worry about taking too much PTO or not having enough PTO.

Um, if things were going on with him medically, I could send a text and they're like, what do you need? We'll come get you. We're praying for you right now. What does, what does he need? Right. And so I didn't have that stress. And that was [00:32:00] so different than how I raised my older two children. So I was able to truly put my attention and time into raising my youngest child, Jerry, and Jerry's also a musician.

So he was able to be in this incredibly musical, musical. where he now is gigging on his own and he knows how to do the sound. He knows a V like he, you know, he was just exposed to so much and I'm grateful that he was exposed to some incredible Black men that he had that. Complete access to. So I recognized, so I laughed because I'm like, Jerry got a, got a taste of justice youth and he wasn't a part of it because I was like, dag, I wish he, you know, I'm like, he would have loved, he would have been great in justice youth.

And I'm like, he did, he got a chance to be a part of something like that, that he doesn't even realize. And Jerry is like a leader's leader. He's just, he's an amazing human being. And, um, that was a benefit from working there, but [00:33:00] it took me some time to sit back to think through what that looked like. But also recognize that I had more of a voice than I knew when I worked there, but.

I kept going to the table as if I'm just glad that they're allowed to be at the table. 

Kendra: So can we talk, cause yeah, I wanted to stop you earlier, but I didn't want to interrupt. I didn't want to let you get it all. But just from there all the way back to where you were talking about them being well meaning Black men or well meaning men, can we talk about the gender dynamics involved in all this?

And that even as a lot of this benefited your son and your relationship with your son, even as a lot of this benefited the ministry. How the gender dynamics play and how it impacted you and other women working in the church. 

Tanika: There were moments where it felt like it was an unsafe space for me as, as a woman working there.

Um, and again, I think one of the most dangerous things about it was that that was never anyone's intention. [00:34:00] That was not their intention. Their intention was not that at all. Um, even down to, uh, some really small things. So I was over events and all that. And, and just. There was a, there was an internal event, event we had, I think we were celebrating the holidays and, um, I set it up, made a really nice candy station, all those things.

And it was time to break it down. And it was the intern, it was, you know, all staff. And when I looked around, all the men were sitting at one table talking and then, and I'm breaking things up and just organically the other women's staff members were helping

and no one else. The men, the men did not move. Yeah, some, some of them slid over so that we can grab. And, and again, like that wasn't, but I was just like, Ooh, and it was an innate thing. And [00:35:00] I'm like,

is this, I was just like, is this really happening? And I remember walking away being upset. I was upset, but I didn't share why I was upset because I was so upset. I was afraid that if I shared. That it wouldn't be received well, and I did not have the language, um, and language is important and, um, plug, I always talk about Kendra with language.

I was like, I wish I could just have Kendra around with me everywhere I go because she always has the perfect language for every situation. That I'm in. I don't know about you, but every situation I'm in, she, every situation, I'm like, dang, if I had the language, because right now I'm just going to like lash.

And it's going to like, like, sister, you just tired. You're overwhelmed. And, and that would happen sometimes too, because when I did express, Um, some frustrations even about other staff members, because I would say, yo, they're full time. They're not working even half as much as I am. Why are we leaning on volunteers more than we're leaning on the people who [00:36:00] get paid to be here this whole time?

And I would get the, sis, you got a lot on you. Let's, let's take some off your plate or, or, you know, and not really addressing those things. And so recognizing that was always, I was fighting to not be that angry woman on the job. Yeah. But I was growing, that was growing, it was growing, it was growing, because I was watching the dynamic change and shift and adjust and I'm like, yo, and then when the pandemic hit, I'm like, listen, we all in the pandemic, so like, it's not just you and him and so I'm supposed to show you grace, but I'm not getting that same grace.

Kendra: Yeah. Men, men, men have the vision and lead, and women do the work to make it come into fruition. 

Tanika: Yeah. On only because that we've been modeled that that is the way, right. Because we know it doesn't work 

Kendra: at all. 

Tanika: It's not serving. It's not serving the men who didn't even think to get up and help. [00:37:00]Right.

They're not in a better place because they have no accountability to it, and then we're frustrated and overworked and lashing out because. We just want to be seen right? We want someone to see our labor and to jump in and some of this could be that kind of save your thing, right? Like, I want you to be the man of God, right?

That you say you're supposed to be, but. In our humanity, we have to call out the patriarchy and for so many of us, we didn't learn how to do that for ourselves and for the men in our lives. So thank you for lifting that up. 

Kendra: Some of us had to go to graduate school and other spaces to do it while at home.

We were still catching hell while in the church. We were still catching him. Yeah. Right. So, you know, I want to dig in because this is very important to me. You know, this is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. What do you think, I know there's the pandemic, I know there's a particular political moment, I know that the world is changing and it has been changing, [00:38:00] um, and there's so much to say about how the place of the Black church and Black life has shifted and moved.

What role, if any, do you think that the patriarchy, so the Black male patriarchy has, what role do you think it has played in the current state of the Black church? And what do you think means, what do you want to see happen, as a woman of faith who is still very much in the institution? Thank you 

Tanika: So it's a loaded question.

I'm going to break it up. What I would like to see happen is probably, it's going to sound a little weird. I would like for the Black church to get back, to go back to some of the things that it did before, right? Now it was deep in patriarchy, but the Black church was the place where people went. That's where action, that's where social justice, and that's where action happened.

That's when people mobilized and the church is not that anymore. The Black church has, has grown to play it safe for the most part. And, um, and not using the power that God has given them [00:39:00] to use. They are worshiping a small God. The Black church is not Looking at God in, in all of the grandeur and everything that God has to offer is not tapping into it.

And that is very, very frustrating for me. It is very frustrating for me. So what I would love, I would love for the Black church to get back to the roots of being the place where it happened. That was the room that it happened. That's where information was shared. That's where gatherings occurred. That place of fellowship.

And I think we get so caught up on that fellowship on Sundays or whatever day individuals, uh, decide to worship because after the pandemic, some people worship on Saturdays and different, you know, whatever, right. We're so caught up on, on that fellowship and trying to draw people in for that, for that day of, for that day of corporate worship that we forget about worship and in these other ways, because the advocacy and social justice worship, um, educating our [00:40:00] folks on what's available to them.

That's worship. There's resources. That's worship. And, and so like that is the piece that's missing. The other side of it is, um, is that, um, money does play a factor because the church is a business, so we can't forget that. Mm. You know, preach the church is a business. And, and so, um, what I can say to you, one of the beautiful things that I, I, I can say about the church that I served is that we never fundraise.

Because we didn't have to, we didn't have to because we were very diligent about being good stewards of the money that we had and how we utilize and how we serve the communities, the various communities. And when I say communities, I'm not just talking about geographical community. I group it and I talk about communities of interest where we had a shared belief and communities of action where the, where we're rallied around the shared cause.

And geographical location. So that's what I mean by [00:41:00] community. We, we definitely served our communities well while I was there in leadership. And for that people saw and folks who were even non members, they would donate financially. And I'm bringing that up because, um, sometimes decisions are made based upon being able to make a budget.

And that is something that has changed. And, um, and. It's necessary. I recognize that. But there is this piece that that we need to reckon with when it comes to having the faith of a mustard seed and also, you know, doing our due diligence to ensure that we're able to provide the best services we can provide and having the means to do that and the capacity to do that.

But that also means in looking at staffing, are we overloaded in staff? Are we, you know, right, you know, and so like all of those pieces and looking at how that works. [00:42:00]

Kendra: The 20/80 rule. Who's the 20 and who's the 80? Are we seeing a pattern? How does that play into it? We can't be a good steward. 

Kelli: And who's a volunteer and who's on staff?

Kendra: Yeah, because I, you know, don't get me started talking about the way my mama keep going on about being a volunteer and I'm like, she's doing more work than people. That's all staff. That's another story for another time. 

Kelli: You're going to have to strike that line right there. 

Kendra: Keep that right in there. She can be mad all she wants.

Tanika: And to be clear though, like she, she is a servant, you know, My Lola is a servant leader. And she could be, I'm not telling her, I'm not saying, yeah, like she is. 

Kendra: Yeah. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm saying that people who actually are. paid to do work at the place to take a look at what she's doing as a volunteer and do some self reflection.

Tanika: I think self reflection is definitely good and it's necessary and there's not enough of that. [00:43:00]

Kendra: Yeah. And I'm not even talking about people just at that church, I'm saying in general. 

Tanika: And there's a, there's a pattern of foremothers in our lines. Who martyred themselves for church. But she ain't doing that no more thankfully.

Tuesday, Wednesday, but I think some of that is because of y'all, she's seeing y'all ask the questions and set the boundaries, but a lot of women in my family who martyred themselves for ministry, for service, and they were never appreciated, I think sometimes it's our, um, I don't say ego from like malicious point, but like there's something in us that's getting fed.

Right. By being that person who's always showing up, who's the last one there, who's going to jump in when they need somebody to usher or fold the program. And I know I've had to unpack what that looks like and learn how to set boundaries because I've never. I didn't see that done, um, especially around church.[00:44:00]

Kendra: That's one thing about, and Tanika can attest to this, that's one thing about Cherry Wiley. Ooh, thank you. She worked to the bone, but she set her boundaries and she told the truth, and that's what's missing. 

Kelli: Yeah. 

Kendra: I've seen her say several times, Pastor, I love y'all, but you're wrong. Yes. And, and she wasn't going to do anything that, that didn't sit right with her.

If she saw something, I don't care who was doing it and where they was doing it, she called it like it was. And loving it. Right? And that's the part of the, of the servant leader persona that I think is missing. And that, that women weren't always just, you know, demure and meek about it. Some of them like, so listen, because I am putting in the sweat equity, y'all gonna hear my voice.

And that's a piece of it. I think that, that is missing. I feel like in many ways. Because, uh, our churches have moved to this kind of new, non denominational frame, which I love, and I was happy that it wasn't caught up in certain policies and procedures and pompous circumstances, but I do think that some of [00:45:00] the evangelical ways about centering the family have shown up, that women's voices just look different, um, and that, like, women are allowed to speak boldly if they are dressed a certain way and focus on women matters, women's conferences.

You know, but when we talking about, when we talking about big, big ticket topics, we got to bring in a man. And I feel like the church has regressed and I, and I hate to keep bringing it up, but I think gender plays a lot in it. And I feel like we regressed and we are seeing the fruits of that. 

Kelli: And we see a lot of our colleagues who felt pressured to be married, to be seen at church.

My voice is going to be listened to differently because I'm saying it with my husband, even if it was my idea or my, my contribution. 

Kendra: Yeah. I had a family member tell me, like, I was actually planning on going to medical school when I got out of undergrad, went to an elite university. But my pastor has suggested that I needed to focus on pouring into my husband.

Her pastor told her that. Right? [00:46:00] Um, so I think if we don't reckon with these truths, we can't, and I mean, a loving critique, I'm not meaning, I'm not meaning like, throw the baby out with the bathwater, I hate that saying, but you know what I mean. I mean, like, the loving critique of like, listen, Let's, let's, let's call a thing a thing and if we can do that and I can have that conversation, what are we talking about?

So not to harp on this stuff, Tanika, because there's more to your life than what you've done into the church and your relationship to the church. What are you doing now? What, what is your role in society? What does your career look like? What's life look like? What is education like? What do your dreams and goals look like?

Tanika: Life has, has, has, I've, my life has, uh, I've done a 180 all this time and that I was, uh, Speaking, uh, my time working at the church, you know, I was dealing with these issues of not being enough because I never finished undergrad. And so 27 years later, I graduated from Point Park University with my undergrad degree.

I'm now working on my MBA. Uh, my two adult children, [00:47:00] uh, my, my oldest is married now and she's given me five beautiful grandchildren. There's five of them. The oldest is nine. Dear God, the youngest is three and they're twins. They live about 10 minutes from me and they're moving three minutes away now. And, um, that is a blessing.

And I love them so much. I'm their Gigi. They are a lot. Um, but. Uh, my, my middle child is doing great. He's working, he is, uh, finding himself, which is really good. He is, he was the middle child and he was the, he's the introvert of the family. And so it's great to see him coming into his own. And this youngest child of mine is 15 year old.

I think I'm just, I'm, I'm here to be his momager and Uber driver. Um, that's, I think that's my role. Uh, with him. He came here. He kind of came here. A genius though, I'm [00:48:00] just saying. Mm-Hmm. . He legit has been on fire. And, and that is so amazing too, because he was birthed from trauma. Like there was so much trauma.

And just to like, to see how he has, um, evolved. I'm, I'm grateful. I'm so grateful. 

Kendra: And he gonna be the one to get us out the ghetto. He gonna be rich and famous for some, for something. 

Tanika: Listen, um, I do believe he would be the one to, to, to take care of us. I do. Uh, I really believe that. Oh, and he does have a heart for it.

Cause even now, like Kendra used to tell me every time I would get like a little extra piece of change, she'd be like, you are not Santa Claus. Stop, stop acting. Stop, stop trying to help everybody. And Jerry got that. Oh man. Like he took us out to eat last night. So he was like, no, it's on me. It's on me.

It's on me. It's on me. No. And, and I'm working. Um, I was working for the government for a while. After I left the church, um, learned a lot, disrupted a lot, and it was really fun. And, and I'm, and I left on great terms, which is good. And I still, [00:49:00] um, I'm called on, I'm on a board, I'm on an advisory board for housing opportunity fund and where we manage a 10 million budget yearly.

And so that's, that's great. And I'm now working at a nonprofit, I'm back in nonprofit. And the beautiful thing about this is that is the full circle moment. Where when I worked at Global Ministries, I was, uh, it was also, we did some, we did some small philanthropic work. But I now have a greater understanding for the work that I was trying to do then and how I could have done it better and differently, because I was making folks go through jump, jump through hoops for 5, 000 for a C grant, all these reports and all that kind of stuff, you know, so I'm.

I'm now on the other side of it and, um, the work isn't hard, but it is a lot. It's not hard. It's in my bag, but it is a lot. Uh, and so a lot going in different directions and I get to create. I'm back to programming and project development, and I'm doing some project management [00:50:00] and. And working with brands and doing some, uh, partnership agreements and MOUs and all that good stuff that I, that I moved away from for a while.

And so I am, I'm really happy with who I am and who I've become. Um, and I'm happy about, I'm happy with my story because that was something I've been so ashamed of. I've been so ashamed. And when I would see people that knew me when I was in my darkest moment, I would like, you know, put my head down sometimes just be like, you know, Hey, Um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm here, but with that, I am also actively in therapy and I have therapy every Monday at 1 p. m. virtually. And so I am very happy to say that that has helped me tremendously. I am very single and happily single. I'm no longer looking for a full and whole family, all that crap that I was believing to be true. I am single and I'm so satisfied in my singleness. I am [00:51:00] the poster child of being single.

I am so happy and I'm not mad for those who want to be in relationships. That is fine. I just know that I've been by myself for so long. I wouldn't want to do that to nobody. It's not fair to them because I don't want to share. I don't want to compromise. I love my space. I am so happy with who I am and, and I was never, I've never been.

So in over 40 years, like I never, I was never, ever happy with who I am. I was never happy with what look, who I saw in the mirror, the voice that I heard coming back, what I wasn't. And so I am now happy with who I am. And that is, that is, Worth way more than all of the crap that I believed to be true before.

Kendra: Amen. 

Kelli: I'm going to buy you some, uh, some sexy woman toys to celebrate. 

Kendra: Oh my Lord. 

Kelli: Ooh, I'll do an episode on adult toys. All right, [00:52:00] Leatra. 

Kendra: Oh, don't forget about Act Three Consulting Partners. I'm just saying I had to cut that off. We're not going there right now. 

Tanika: Yes. And I am. A partner in actually consulting partners that--

Kendra: Don't be fake about it. If you don't want to talk about it, don't, but don't don't be fake.. 

Tanika: I'm not being fake. I would love to speak on the beautiful work that Act 3 consulting partners does. And so I have that-- what, Kendra. What? 

Kendra: Look, I'm not asking you to speak more. I just want to let you know, I want to let people know that you're also a partner I am a partner.

Tanika: I am a partner in Act 3 Consulting Partners, um, which is, we're a trio. It's Kendra, Denele, and Tanika. And, um, we also take on singing engagement, engagements as well. And so, I am. 

Kendra: The devil is a lie and ain't no truth in him. She know one key, B flat. And she don't even know what it sound like. 

Tanika: I know how to say it.

Kelli: Don't do it like that. Yeah, and you are also our [00:53:00] producer's soror. 

Tanika: Yes, I became a Zeta Phi Beta finer woman, um as of last year in a graduate in the graduate chapter Oh, and and oh, I am the social action chair. And so today I get to um I get to do a training in 30 minutes. I'm doing a training For the Western PA Zetas related to political engagement.

And so the do's and don'ts, and I was able to put that together and, uh, pulled team of some other Soros from different chapters. And so I'm excited about that. I I'm excited. I do enjoy, I enjoy serving and I became a Zeta because of the serving aspect. And the last piece is. Is that in Western Pennsylvania, we have three chapters.

We have three graduate chapters and there's split by geographical locations. So we have different service areas. And even though I live in one service area, I chose to seek after to seek membership in, uh, in an area called the Mon Valley [00:54:00] area. And my why for that is because of, um, me coming back to Pittsburgh, I ended up moving into the Mon Valley area.

And, um, I talk about being at my darkest moment and I was in a very abusive relationship and, and the scariest part of it is that I didn't realize I was being abused. Um, and then until one day I finally hit and, um, and the Mon Valley is what helped me. The Mon Valley served me well. And the, the Mon Valley gets a really bad rep on the limited resources.

And the low rates of graduation and the, uh, high crime and all those things. But what I can say is that the Mon Valley served me well. The Mon Valley, uh, was there for my children and the Mon Valley got me into a safe space. And we had, there was night court that was virtual and there were all these things that were put in place.

And so my "why?" for becoming a [00:55:00] Zeta and being able, and so I get to serve in the Mon Valley. So I'm so excited to be able to go back to that place, Kelli and these tears. If you don't 

Kelli: Listen, menopause brings about a whole new lack of regulation of emotion. Let me just say that. I know that's right.

Tanika: Whew! 

Kelli: However, that is beautiful. Yeah. In all the ways. 

Kendra: I am not affiliated with any sorority, but I will say that the, and, and, and all of our chapters or all of our, you know, Divine Nine are great in Pittsburgh. The men do great work. The Qs do great work. The Kappas are doing great work. The H taking kids, the HBCU, like our Divine Nine in Pittsburgh are very active in the great things, but I will say, and it's not just because I have lots of friends, including two of my best friends, three, actually, because, uh, Maisha is also in the chapter with Tanika, but, um, the Zetas are very active in their service, like to the point where I'm like, what y'all doing now?

Um, they are, they are about that service life for sure. So shout out to them and all of the divine [00:56:00] nine in the pittsburgh region. 

Kelli: Who does thank you We're the divine nothing 

Tanika: Divine all things 

Kelli: Oh, I like it all things all things 

Kendra: Any takeaways ? Anything you would like to ask us before you go? 

Tanika: Why did it take you so long to start this?

This is this is so necessary and Your voices needed to be heard a long time. I'm grateful that we're here, but why did it take so long?

Kelli: Life? I mean, yeah, it, it just, so many things kept getting in the way and we finally had to say, like, we're going to push through even though life is going to continue to be what it is. Um, but I do believe when it launched was probably when it was supposed to. And so I don't know if that's about our individual work that we had been doing or just where we are in our own growth journeys.

But, um, yeah, I would [00:57:00] say life is why it took so long. 

Kendra: We got smart the same way I had to, I had to find me a millennial to help me finish my dissertation. I had to find that same millennial to help us do our podcast because if it was up to us to like be, edit and all this stuff, we would still be trying to figure out what to do with the first episode.

Period pooh. 

Kelli: Yes. Shout out to you. Leatra. Thank you. 

Kendra: So, so Tanika, do you wanna do something unconventional? You was joking at the beginning. Would you like to close this out? In, in, in a, in a inappropriate prayer? Don't go on. I mean, you ain't got to, you know, we not the old mother, the church prayer. Just a little something.

Tanika: I would love to. 

Thank you for asking me. God, I come to you just thanking you for bringing us all together. I thank you for allowing us to have the ability and access to you directly and not having to go through anyone to get to you and to go to you straight and direct in our authentic way. I thank you for the gifts that are on this, on these cubes, on this screen.

God, I thank [00:58:00] you for the decisions that we have all individually and collectively made. That got us to who we are now, God. And I thank you for the boldness and the courageousness of Kelli, Kendra, and Liatra to be able to move forward and to do what some may not understand. I thank you for allowing them to be able to be used.

And I thank you for giving them the voice and the language to speak and to disrupt and to educate, but to still equally love. I thank you. And I'm asking that you will just continue to bless every single thing that they touch, everything that comes across their desk and their professional lives and their personal lives.

God, I ask that you will just continue to allow them to be their authentic selves. And that nothing and no harm comes upon them. In your precious name we pray. [00:59:00] Amen. Amen.

Kendra: The doors of the church 

are now open. Come as, come one, come all. Come as you are. Thank you so much Tanika Harris. 

Tanika: You're so welcome. 

Kendra: For joining us. 

Tanika: Thank you for having me. 

Me. No, this was great. Thank you for, I haven't talked, I haven't, I haven't shared. So this is like the first time I was able to like really share in this type of space.

So thank you for letting me do that. This has been, this is, this was healing. This is a good time to sing. There's enough to go around. So why are you holding people down? This is Kendra's Song. We, we, 

Kendra: we appreciate you. Um, and uh, thank you for making this the most churchy, uh, episode to date. Um, and putting the womanist theology in this womanist work.[01:00:00]

Tanika: And, and, and, and I say it like that is Kendra's mom, but like, you know, I'm an orphan now. Like I don't have no parents and I literally like Kendra's mom and Danelle's mom, they take care of me. Like they, They are my parents. And so it's a different type of thing that I have, you know, it's a different feeling and it's a different love.

And, and they were two people that when I got pregnant at 15, a lot of folks in the church told their kids to not be around me because as it's like, they were going to get, it was like contagious. And that was not the case with my Lola and my ex. And I know they didn't fit. I know. It probably didn't feel great.

And I'm sure it was a little, a little sadness because like they, you know, they had these high hopes for me as well, but they never ever turned their backs on [01:01:00] me and they never told their children not to talk to me. And that was huge. Especially in that church that, that I was serving in, you know what I mean?

So. I joke about it, but like, you know, my Lola is my mom too. Like, she is, she still takes care of me. And my, and my kids. And, and the Great Grant, you know, so. Yeah. Woo, that one took me over the edge. Thank you for lifting up the power of Black women in church. Um, Even sometimes when we come across as hard, hardened, um, I think it's always because we know what that experience was.

And so, um, I'm glad that you have Black women who were able to show up for you. Um, so yeah. 

Kendra: Here, here, Black women saved my life. Shout out to our mothers, my grandmothers, both who are deceased. Shout out to Jean Bryant. Shout out to Sherry Wiley. Shout out to Shirley Jean. We speak your [01:02:00] name. And on that, I'm getting off of here.

Kelli: Y'all don't have to keep on having me crying all night. I'm not doing this to y'all. Ooh, child. 

Tanika: Mmm. Mmm. I don't have no tissue. I didn't think I was, I only got a messed up napkin.

Kelli: This is like grab your hanky episode y'all. Get your hanky ready. 

Kendra: Them Chipotle napkins are the worst. That's what will tear your whole face up.

Tanika: I gotta be finer in the 15 minutes. 

Kendra: Yeah, go get yourself cleaned up.