Kelli: [00:00:00] The views shared in this episode represent Kelli, Kendra and Chiyah. Not our mommas, our partners, our church, our jobs, or our sponsors.

Kendra: Hey y'all. This is Kendra. I wanted to introduce our all new episode called "grown ass Black women standing on business," which is actually not all new at all. We're going to hop back in the time machine and take you to February 2024. When Kelli and I, along with our good girl friend, who you've met previously, Dr. Chiyah Lawrence recorded our first episode. You'll notice that it's a little rough in terms of the sound quality. We were still figuring it out, but we still had a really great discussion. So please check it out. Let us know what you think. Like it, comment on it, give us notes, but I think you're going to really enjoy the conversation and you'll see kind of where it all [00:01:00] started from.

And this is like the initial conversation that got the podcast going. So I'm really proud of this episode. Enjoy. 

Kelli: Hey y'all, this is Kelli King Jackson, Kendra Ross, and Chiyah Lawrence, and welcome to the first episode of our podcast, This Womanist Work. And we're super glad that you're here with us. 

Kendra: This podcast is for former church girls who woke up one day and realized that life was bigger than what Big Mama and the Bible say.

And we're lucky that as we started exploring our identities as Black women, we had each other. 

Kelli: This podcast is inviting you into our group chat where we talk about faith, community, politics, and pop culture. We don't believe in leaving any Black woman behind. So come on in. Hey y'all. I'm Kelli King Jackson and I am a third generation PK.

I am also the genealogist of my generation. I'm one of the first in my family to migrate back to the South. I currently live. In Houston, Texas, I [00:02:00] consider myself a progressive Christian, not quite sure what that means, but I'm going with it for now. I have a super complicated relationship with church and the four walls of church, but I really believe in building my own spiritual practice to feed my spirit.

I'm also politically active in my community and I love a good old school Black Twitter thread.

Kendra: And I'm Kendra. I'm the artsy fartsy one. I'm also a churchy girl, but I've always been rebellious. Even in that I was always the one asking the preacher, why, who said that, who gave you authority? But I still somehow told the line at the same time. So like I would have a smart mouth, but I still did what the church and my mom and them told me to do.

And so when I got older and started asking different questions, I think really for me moving back from New York to Pittsburgh and turning 40 plus, I just started to like really show up as myself and ask different questions. And so now I'm just like, yep, nope. [00:03:00] If it's not feeding my spirit, I'm not trying to hear it at church otherwise.

So yeah. Here we are the artsy fartsy Rebellious Spirit 40 plus. 

Chiyah: She's coming with a bar in her intro. 

Kendra: Oh, and one thing. I tend to drop a bar too. I am a songwriter so bars just kind of come to me. You know, 

Chiyah: I'm Chiyah. I'm the baby of my family and the baby of our trio. I was a church girl my whole life. So, consider myself a recovering church girl.

And I too have a complicated relationship with the Church. It doesn't often see me. I'm also just continuously unlearning a lot of what has shaped my religious experience thus far. And in learning new things as well. I'm chronically online for now. It's TikTok all the time. And I love my life and advocate for them.

Kendra: So like while we're here, y'all let's catch the people up on what's been popping in the group chat. [00:04:00] Let's see. Was it Ushering them skims or dishing on his love life or this already whack election season or what? What are we talking about? Anything else, Kelli? Did I miss something? 

Kelli: No. I mean, we decided we're going to call this first episode grown ass Black women standing on this.

Child. So let's hop into it. When I can look back on my thread. That I contributed there this this week, my rants on finding a health care provider as a Black woman, who chow I have been medical explained. I think that now needs to be a term I've gotten to run around, you know, my sister friends have just been going through it this week.

So how we access care and get the care we deserve has been something I've been talking about in the chat. And then sadly, my other theme is. If the orange fool wins the election, what is [00:05:00] going to be my exit plan so that I don't have to spend the majority of my time on this here. So those were kind of things that I was talking about in the chat.

Kendra: Yeah. We, the orange man, like I said, I'm sick of Joe Biden texting me, but I will take that over the orange man any day. But we ain't gonna talk about that right now. In the chat for me, let me see. I know I had a lot to say about my time in the cafeteria with my co workers, our Black co workers talking about the quote unquote female delusion calculator where you can find out the likelihood of finding your dream man.

Yeah, that thing, it exists, it's online. My time at the Grammys for the fourth time. And probably my favorite and I don't know if we'll get to it, but the speech presentation talk, I'm not sure how to describe it, that Dr. Kia Conerway gave at the National Black, excuse me, the National Baptist Joint Board Meeting, I guess, I don't know how you call these conventions.

Is it the National Baptist Convention? I don't know. But she killed it. I don't know. [00:06:00] I would love to talk about that at some point. 

Kelli: Okay 

Chiyah: I I'm sure I contributed to the Usher in the skin part of the thread or anything else Ushered Because I love him. And apparently Kelli was next and Kendra was entertained by me shopping for appropriate tires for a job interview and looking for a shell.

I needed something to wear and apparently my church girl sensibilities came jumping out because I looked for a shell and did find one before I called the show. 

Kendra: So I don't know. I don't know. I feel like there's a theme going with Chiyah and I want to, I want Chiyah to like, you know, maybe dive into the theme between Chiyah and her shell.

And Usher in his skims. I don't know. I feel like there's something there's a synergy there Tell me if i'm wrong Chiyah 

Chiyah: I mean bodies body body And the one I like to look at in the one Oh more complicated [00:07:00] That part 

Kendra: I don't know.

Kelli: What do y'all think? What are we talking about? What are we diving into on the pod today?

Chiyah: I mean, I kind of want to hear I want to hear About Dr. Conerway just because of some of the excitement that Kendra had about it and I wonder what's in there and if maybe it even relates to this balloon calculator thing that hurt my feelings. 

Kendra: I'm, I mean, I just have to say that we can touch upon this, but I'm going to maintain that although this is our first episode, I'm claiming that at some time in the near future, we need to just bring Dr. Conerway on the podcast. I felt like she embodied and said a lot of what we already think, although she is more like squarely in the millennial space. And we are Gen X and Xeniel, Chiyah being our Xeniel. She spoke, I think eloquently about where millennial Black women are. And I don't want to go on and on, [00:08:00] but I read, I listened to it again today, actually, because, and I took notes like I was in school.

She was talking to the Black church, specifically the Baptist church from which she came. She's a Baptist herself. About how they are three generations behind and specifically where they really lost themselves is with the millennials that millennials are the first generation who, you know, you know, you go to college, you leave church and then one day you, you grow up, you have kids and then you go back.

Millennials are the generation that didn't do that. They have not been back. So she said, you lost me, you lost, you know, my, you know, my, my, you know, younger siblings, my younger siblings, and some of my children, Gen Z, and you lost Generation Alpha, those are born 2013 or after. 

Kelli: I mean, I feel like we've picked a topic, so can we just stay here?

Kendra: I think, I think it's, I think it's fitting, right? Because I think we're talking about, I feel like This Womanist Work is like a clarion call For [00:09:00] this, you know, for what she's basically talking about, it may be a step too late to go back, but we could definitely look ahead in a different way.

I think, I don't know what y'all think. 

Kelli: I like it. I mean, I think this election is a good example. Like, we've lost the whole generation of young people who believe this democracy is a farce. And the receipts are the receipts, right? So I think that what's happening in the church, in the church is indicative of what's happening in broader society.

They don't want to accept it. And so I think this is our topic.

Kendra: Well, amen. And I'm sure we can find ways to fit Usher and his skims, you know, 

Chiyah: Always! 

Kendra: Let the church say, amen. I'm sure we can find a lot of the other pieces to put in here, but you know, I feel like this is a good grounding for where we're going with this podcast.

That's just me. 

Kelli: So, I'm curious what. What captured, what drew you in when you first saw the clip on your feed? 

Kendra: Well, first of all, [00:10:00] when when somebody says to a bunch of church people, if this might be the last time I get a chance to have this podium. But that's okay. When somebody prefaces with their comments with that, I already know, I'm, I'm 10 toes down.

I'm in. That's a grown as a Black woman standing on business from, from jump. So part of the context, I believe for her speaking in addition to dressing, you know, the last generations was the fact that was another Black woman who had spoke at the conference. Dr. Gina Stewart had a sermon that I guess, you know, Had some people, you know, up in arms and it was taken down from the website or the Facebook of the convention But it had already had a hundred and twenty thousand views or something.

And so she did a few things in this speech. Dr Conaway's and we could talk about it. I ain't gonna I'm not gonna monopolize the time But one thing I was very fascinated by was she was able to cover a bunch of topics But she tied it all in and used her personal experience as a Black woman who's an academic And the preacher first, she said, [00:11:00] you're missing, you know, you're the generations are lost with three generations behind.

And she really talked about needing us to bring our concept of divinity to the lived experiences of people's humanity. For such a time as this. And so she was just saying, you know, for instance, she said, my daughter is in school with little boys that wear nail polish. And with, with little girls who have two mamas, if we can't speak, you know, our divinity that can't speak to their humanity, what are we even doing?

Right? So she spoke to that piece of it. She spoke to the piece of being a Black millennial woman, who's an academic who came out of the church, the Baptist church, who herself now is preaching in a non denominational church because she didn't feel safe in the Baptist church, spoke to that and she spoke.

She didn't tie that in specifically to the place of Black women or women in the pulpit in that if we don't show them the same deference. In the same, same respect, we're going to lose the church because this generation is not playing that. And how, and she said, I did my dissertation on [00:12:00] media and talked about how social media is meant to be a persuasive technology.

And that the Baptist conference is losing out on money for taking that sermon down because they could have made some money off that sermon that they could then use to draw in the younger. I mean, she, she turned that thing three, you know, three, six, I said so there was just so, so much, so much to it that I was fascinated with.

And at one point, one of the preachers, he called himself trying to kind of wax eloquent and try to ask her a probing question. He's like, you know, we have, we got three generations of Franklin. We got CL Franklin. We got that moved the church forward. We got CL Franklin. We got Aretha Franklin and we got Kerr Franklin with the millennial generation.

And he said, well first, she said, first of all, let me start by saying that Craig Franklin is not a millennial. He's Gen X, first of all. But he was like, are you thinking it's too late? His ass is out! Period. Then she's like, are you, he said, do you think it's too late? And she said, I dare not say it's too late, but this is the part that got me and I want to start from here.

But we have to, I think it's time for us to eulogize the [00:13:00] church we grew up with. 

Kelli: Mm, I felt that. 

Kendra: Yeah. And so she put, she did so much in that. She brought her whole self as an academic, as a Black woman, you know, as a, a daughter, as a, as a mother of a child who is in these different spaces, who people are expressing their humanity different.

And she's like, we have to, as a church, be able to speak to that, speak to other people's And she said, we need to send our preachers. To to, to class to learn more about gender identity. Or just go in the, in the community, right? 

Kelli: Mm hmm. So there was just so much. But class so they can know how to talk about it.

Kendra: That's the whole point. Talk about it. And let the church be a safe space for people to come to, to bring the, their entire selves to. Right. And it just, I mean, she didn't get as many amens on that as I thought she should have, but. 

Kelli: Well, because we don't just default or they will default to hate the sin, love the sinner, right?

Like the [00:14:00] work that is required to really unpack our theology is violent, is work that a lot of people don't want to do. Right. Right. And it, it, it breaks my heart. Right? Like I stopped going to church because I was no longer going to go to a church where anyone that I was working with in my LGBTQ youth homelessness work would not feel welcome.

I was like, I cannot live in contradiction that the work I do every day, those same folks would not feel like they could come here and be their authentic selves. And so I was like, I'm not, I'm not fooling with these churches. And I finally found a church that had an explicit social justice theology, was clear on how the Bible had been manufactured to serve a purpose, but also that we honor that we have a faith, and that that faith is important to us, and it doesn't have to be perfect.[00:15:00]

For it to be a guiding light. And that is how I ended up finding a new faith community, but it took me a long time. So yes, Dr. Conerway, I'm with you.. 

Kendra: Amen. What you thinking about Chiyah? I saw you, I saw you shaking your head. 

Kelli: I'm all of it. I'm amen to it all. But you, before you introduced it, you said that we might be a step too late.

And I was wondering more about that. Like, We about too late. Do you feel like it too? I mean, I dunno, because I, I can't even get a sentence out because if I say, is it too far, too far gone? Well, maybe because we, we all, the whole eulogize, the church we grew up with resonated very strongly for all of us. So just kind of landed.

I actually have always gone to nondenominational churches, so that's for me, I'm, I'm thinking about well central, when I joined nondenominational with missionary baptist groups. [00:16:00] But I don't know, just thinking about all kinds of stuff, Kelli talking about when she stopped going to church. I stopped going to church because I was at the multicultural church with the white people, so we didn't even get as far as the rest of the Bible, because, white, you know, a Black person in a white space.

So yeah, my brain is all over the place. 

Kendra: I mean, I just beg the question, I think. Dr. Conerway kind of gets at it is like, where is it safe to be a Black woman? You know, she's a Black woman. She, I think she says she's pushing up on 40. She's not quite 40. She's got a doctorate. She's also a preacher. She's a mom.

And she had to get before the church that that kind of grew her up and made her and kind of formed her theology and say, I don't feel safe here. And so I'm not just doing it for the generation behind me. But I would, she's like, I would love to bring my platform to the church. So it's interesting, right?

So we were talking about how the Black church hasn't been safe for us. Chiyah is talking about how a multicultural church hasn't been safe for us. And yes, it does have a lot to [00:17:00] do with our race, but not exclusively. That, in particular, what does it mean to be a Black woman in faith spaces is very much what it means to be a Black woman on Earth.

Because I won't even say in the United States of America. 

Kelli: And I would actually, Deconstruct multicultural, because in my experience, because my church is kind of split half Black and half white. I find that non Black people want a multi racial church. They don't want a multicultural church, right? So they want people that rainbow, right?

Even different genders, right? We want everybody to come, but we want the structure, how we do worship, the politics to all be white. And I find that white folks, particularly progressive white folks, when you start talking about what would this look like for this to be a multicultural church, they get uncomfortable because they lose power.

That's not how [00:18:00] we do it. We don't sing the song that way. We don't sing it at that pace. We read it out the hymnal. We don't play music by ear. Like I'm watching it play out in real time and it just disgusts the hell out of me because I'm just like, it's, can I find a faith community that really reflects what God created?

So did he create all of us as diverse as he did? Surely he didn't think we was all just gonna morph into one thing because he could have just made us all the same. Like, I don't get it. Intellectually, I struggle with it. 

Kendra: Well, can I ask you a question? Does what you describe not sound like the Democratic Party?

Yeah! They're happy of us to taste the rainbow, right? We could be different colors, we could have different sexual orientations. But ultimately, you've got to toe their line. And you got to keep saying, well, this is what we have now. We can't change it. You can't disrupt this because what's that [00:19:00]going to do?

Those of us who have been hanging on to this power for, you know, for decades and decades, we can't afford to lose power because we're the ones that we, we know we have all the information. And what have the young people said? We're not trying to hear that no more. And when young people say, we're not standing for it anymore.

They're told, you know, this is not productive. They're trying to, they're driven by fear. If you don't do what we say, you're going to end up with the orange man again. You're going to dilute the vote. So we have to talk about how not even just the Black church, but I would say the protestant church or just the church in general in the United States is, is wrapped up well in the political system and how they really, really inform each other and kind of feed each other.

And it makes me really nervous being someone who's like, yes, I'm in the church, but I got issues. I'm in a democratic party, but I got issues. You know what I mean? I feel like, why do I always have to like shape shift? Because to your point, Kelli, nobody wants to cede any power. [00:20:00] Where is our succession plan?

And this is why I think to answer Chiyah's earlier question, it depends on how you're framing the question. Is it too late for what? Is it too late to have hope for a better future? No. If we recognize that the church of our, that we grew up with, the church of our past must be eulogized. If the political system of our past must be eulogized and that we need to imagine something different or better or more expansive, then I think we're good.

But if we feel like the tools we have are all we have, then I It's not feeling too good. It's not looking too good for me. That's where I am.

Kelli: I mean, I straight report the Democratic text messages as spam. So I'm like, first of all, I didn't give you permission to text me. I don't care if you looking at my voting history.

And they just switch numbers. And I'm like, why are you any different than anyone else? All your tactics are exactly the same. And it is not helping us win. Right. Like this idea, I was, I'm listening to rest is [00:21:00] resistance by I can't remember her name. Yeah. And this idea of like, we are striving toward liberation and that the acts that I take, yes, I may still live in this capitalist structure, but I'm still striving for that.

And I feel like the democratic party, which is the party of my mom's generation, right? My mom's a baby boomer. And that loyalty, they don't understand why they got to work for the loyalty of my daughter's generation, who's a millennial. They, they just assume we should be on their side because they say the right things, but I feel like just like in the church, you can, you can learn to use all the right words.

But if your actions don't reflect that and I don't see you actually put any skin into this game I don't see you. I hate that. I don't really see you actually doing the work the labor that's required for our liberation You just you just run your mouth right and you don't want to succeed [00:22:00] And so just like i'm pissed at diane feinstein for dying in office I'm not too happy with Auntie Maxine because I don't know who she has mentored to take her place.

And so we get the same thing because we keep doing the same. 

Chiyah: So I'm currently struggling with the reality that when the church is on my nerves or doesn't feel like it's feeding me or providing me with what I need, I can opt out. I've opted out of church in general for the last few years. I hate the tactic that is, well, what's the alternative, vote for the rest of the two evils, la dee dah.

But, if we were to opt out, what's the alternative? Like, what's gonna happen? In the structure that we currently live in, right? Like, it's still a two party system. If I don't. If I don't participate, if I say, well, I'm in California. So it doesn't matter if I, I can [00:23:00] stand and vote my principles. It's blue, I think, you know, but we can't, but we can't really opt out.

And that is kind of alarming. 

Kelli: And I feel a lot of survivors guilt because if the orange man wins, I do want to not be in the U S a hundred percent of the time and everybody doesn't have that privilege. Right. And so I feel a tug always accountability to the collective, but also what is big for me and my wellbeing, the wellbeing of my mental health.

But I don't want to be in America that chooses this fool again. And I think they don't choose.

Kendra: I am a hundred percent with you, but I'm gonna be honest with you. If it weren't for the freedom dreams of me being an artist and knowing what art can, [00:24:00] can help accomplish on earth. My hopefulness about even if the Democrats do win again, this year is kind of tainted by the fact that like we watching people die on the internet every single day in another part of the world, and we've got all these justifications based off of revisionist history, based off of slogans and propaganda and capitalistic interests and white supremacy, European interests.

And it's very disheartening. And I'm like, if we do maintain the power of this office, are we better off as a, as humanity? Now I'm not talking about the United States. I'm not talking about me as a citizen. I'm talking about humanity. You know, one thing that the social media and internet has enabled is like, Oh, really seeing behind the veil.

We heard things before, if you had a certain level of consciousness and you had access to certain information, you know, you kind of got in, but there were the every everyday average person was able to get away with saying [00:25:00] stuff like, well, I don't really know enough about this to have a conversation. But you can't really say that anymore.

And so I, I am with you, Kelli, the orange man being back in office is wearing me. But going on, like we're going on today. It's very disheartening. And so again, I go back to my freedom dreams, you know, me and my freedom dreams is like to Chiyah's question, like what an alternative is. The alternative for me is to create the best way I know how I can't create political systems by myself.

I can't, I don't, I'm not going to build a church, but in the way that I live my life, live through the dreams of what is the world that I want to see and want to build and who are those people who like minded people who want to build it with me. And that's what we have. And that's what this woman is worth podcast.

That's why I make music. That's why I'm in these other cultural spaces. It's not, it doesn't, it feels like a David and Goliath situation where like those two things can't compare. You can't overcome this with that. But if enough of us do that, I think we can, I think that's, we have to create the spaces we need in order to survive [00:26:00] and thrive and to be hopeful.

And hopefully there's enough of those created that we can overcome a lot of what we see because it's very disheartening. I don't know. I didn't mean to be Debbie Downer, but that's how I feel right now. 

Kelli: You know, I feel actually a lot of hope because unlike previous times in my life, I feel like Particularly Black women.

We are not taking our foot off the gas this time. And so, watching that, like, no, we are not going to just go along with you funding war in our names.. So, watching the number of Black and brown leaders who are saying, we're doing letter writing. I have text threads where we're meeting to support each other to write letters to say, You may, we may feel like this doesn't matter, but we're going to do it anyway, and that people continue to organize and continue to, to move and advance their concerns into this and keep it in the public square and not let it kind of fade away.

gives me a lot of hope. I [00:27:00] feel like even, you know, watching this presidential arse unfold before it, you can see the impact of the pressure of young people. And so I have a lot of hope because people could say they just activists with their thumbs, but they sure are getting these folks riled up. So keep adding young folks.

Kendra: I agree. I have hope. It's just not in what people think we're supposed to have hope in. I don't have hope in these institutions. I don't have hope in what was. I have, I have hope in what it to be and it could have remnants and components of what was and we're going to build on a, on a strong foundation, but we got to disrupt some stuff.

So we like to my, to my girl, Dr. Conerway, we got to eulogize some spaces that aren't serving us anymore. 

Kelli: So I'm curious, like what was y'all's grieving process when you stepped away? Right. Cause I feel like. In some way, individually, we [00:28:00] have mourned what was. What was it like for you to grieve what you thought your faith experience was going to be like?

Chiyah: My mom came with grief, with mourning, preparing to grieve with my mom like as she was ill and then she died and then the world flipped upside down for everybody else. So I don't even know if I can define a process. Sometimes when I think about it, I wish that I was, that I came up in a different place in L. A. because I think it's like. Maybe I would have heard some liberation theology well before now. I felt much more free actually when I stepped away and threw it all away because I didn't really have another choice. Like, okay, so this God I say that I believe in, like, my life is a mess. Everything that they say we're supposed to say, we're supposed to think, we're supposed to believe, I'm supposed to ask for, it's not amounting to much.

And so, for me, [00:29:00] it was this process of being okay with being angry, which, you know, I could've, I could do that in parts, in pieces before. But, my face ended up looking like God can handle, you know, All of me without me having to force myself to look, feel, be something that doesn't make sense for the life that I'm living.

Kendra: I still got to sit with that. Let's go ahead, Kelli, because I'm sitting with the word grief. I have some other emotional. Changes I've gone through, including like embarrassment about who I used to be, what I try to get over and, you know, shame and guilt and all those other things. But the grieving piece, I don't know, I don't know if I can articulate that yet.

So I'm gonna let you go. 

Kelli: I mean, I think for me, it was interesting because I come from such a long line of preachers and of a very specific denomination and theology, right? They are old school Southern Pentecostal. [00:30:00]creatures. So, very early in my life, I knew I didn't fit in, but I didn't have language for it.

Like, I remember being in church service and where people are falling out and jumping around. And I was like, my feet don't do that. Like, I remember being there like, something must be wrong with me because I am observing this, but I am not resident in it. And they are clearly very enthusiastic about what they believe.

And so there is a term that I can't think of theologically that my pastor introduced me to that explains kind of why. And that was because my mom had me in Catholic school. So I was always in a contrarian space where, you know, we pray this one way at my church and then I go to mass and we do something completely different.

And I learned very early on to like, accept both. And so when I knew I was, when I felt myself drifting from [00:31:00] church, it was for me like, okay, there is something else. And so the grief was in having to deal with like family pressure of, Oh, you don't go to your family church and you don't, you don't go visit and you don't show up for the conferences.

Like it was that like being okay, being an outsider in that way. And then I started tapping into my genealogy, foremothers. And I was like, I don't know where she would be. In today's world. And so I can kind of let go and process that what was doesn't have to be my path because she took a very different path.

Right? They said she was an outsider. She was different. People didn't accept her. And so it's my, my lineage to be different. And so in grieving, like being the same, I [00:32:00] could embrace that. This like deep spiritual connection to something bigger than a theology that somebody writes out on newspaper. 

Kendra: Yeah. No, that, that makes a lot of sense.

And I, and I'll just say, instead of talking about grieving, that I've always been a contrarian in the church. I've always been like, but why, but why, but why? And even though I'm not a PK, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a grand PK. Like my grandpa's a preacher. My mom was an elder. My aunt was a minister of music, my great grandfather was a, was a pastor, my great uncle.

So I come from a similar kind of family, but in the Baptist church and I was always kind of the one that was like, that would push the envelope. I mean, you know, I, I still have my church girl ways that really, you know, I was still going every Sunday and going to choir rehearsals and doing things, but I was always questioning everybody.

I would question the preacher. And it was even a period of time when I was younger where I would like look into other religions. Like I met friends who were. I'm studying [00:33:00] Islam and other in different forms, like Nation of Islam and, you know, and all different kinds of that was in my mother. But what are you doing?

I'm like, Hey, grandpa said, I need to know for myself. So I need to see what else is out there. And she was like, Oh, Lord. Okay. And, you know, she never really was like, she wouldn't stop me, but she would say, but you come to church on Sunday. I'm like, whatever, you know? And then, you know, when I got older, I would read books.

About Buddhism and other things and I remember reading, I think a person who really made early on set me free was bell hooks and how she talked about how. You know culturally she was raised christian and she still maintained most of her beliefs But she also was drawn to a lot of the teachings of buddhism As a way of life and spirituality and then I started reading books that talked about the connection between buddha and jesus and all sort of stuff and I had some friends who became sgi and other Other kind of different forms modern forms of buddhism and it was just kind of like I always grounded in christianity But I always just allowed myself to to to imagine more and [00:34:00] and you know Think of God as more expansive.

I, I really just believe that what religion does has done is suppressed God. And I think God is more expansive. I think Assigning God gender identities and geographical locations and races and other stuff really makes God small. And then we started talking about omnipresent and omni-this and omni-that, but y'all making a, you know, and so I've always thought about that.

And then my grandfather, who as before he passed started to, you know, reshape his views and look, look into other, you know, other books that were missing from the Bible and look at the African roots and. And he became more expansive as right before he passed away. And that really freed me also because my grandfather wasn't perfect, but he, I think his journey as a scholar of theology was very similar to mine.

And he wrote an article one time in a paper about how he was a Christian because he was born into a Christian home, but he had a friend as a child who was Jewish. And he believed that, you know, [00:35:00] He, that was the path that God assigned him based on where he was more. And now I was like, Hmm, that's very odd to hear a Baptist preacher say that.

Cause I remember being a kid and be like, well, what happens if somebody's born in Russia in a camp and they'll never have access to Christianity? They go into hell and the junior church people will be like, where did you get this little girl from? So I say all that to say is that, you know, I haven't really fully grieved cause I've always been this way.

It's just, like I said, you know, earlier in my opening is this like, as I got older, coming back home and turning 40. I'm just expressing it a lot more overtly. I'm not like questioning it in private. I'm not like just questioning preachers. I'm just saying, no, I'm not doing that. I'm not going to go to church and y'all, you know, you know, preaching about homosexuality, but y'all not preaching about.

You know how people get along together in the church. I'm not we're not doing this Like i'm just very much standing on business like no I'm not doing that that doesn't doesn't [00:36:00] resonate with my spirit I do think what's missing what i'm grieving if i'm grieving anything is the practice of Committing with folks is the practice of prayer and praise and worship and I do it on my own I do my own little praise and work sessions, but it's very easy for me to go weeks You And not sing a gospel song that was that unheard of most of my life, you know, at least had a day where I sat with something and I can go weeks without not really sitting with any kind of religious text or anything if it weren't for our good friend Cole Arthur Riley and her Black liturgies.

That's I mean, I think that's the, that's the, the most holy I get in a day sometimes. And so. Back to my other piece is that for me, the grieving process of practice has been seeking out alternative spaces. The Black feminist reading group that I've started here that is kind of dormant right now, but that was a space for me to like, even though it was through the lens of Black feminism, it really was searching from the divinity and like [00:37:00] a spiritual path.

Spaces like our group chat, spaces like this woman's work, my time with other friends and family. Time with Black women for me is a very holy time. I always feel renewed and refreshed when I'm with Black women that I love. And so realizing that God is just showing up for me differently in ways that fill me up has kind of helped me live through that.

But sometimes I am like, man, dad, when's the last time I actually opened the Bible app? When's the last time I, you know, I don't need it, but I'm saying, you know what I mean, you know, like, but, but like I said, my good, my good This is Nicole Arthur Riley. Has definitely and others like her, right, have really kind of, kind of helped me make it through these, through this like very interesting transition time.

But I always been a rebel. I've always been a rebel. 

Kelli: I just realized while you're talking that when I stopped going to Black church, I ended up going to white church and it was dark and I [00:38:00] was like, I don't want to hear no more yelling and running around the building. I just want, I just need silence.

And so I started going to the like David Crowder churches. They had the lights low and the candles and the worship leader didn't wear no shoes. I was like, yeah, I can do this for a little while. Church was over in an hour, could have been in for three. And then I realized, okay, this dark space, like I'm ready to come out of it.

And then I started really looking for, Where was I actually going to belong? Cause I knew I wasn't going to be able to stay there for long, but it served a purpose because I really do think I was, I was sad. Like I was disappointed that Black leaders, faith leaders couldn't show up for the fullness of Black folks.

And that just really hurt my heart because when I look at what's happening in our communities. I'm like, so y'all come to church, you condemn everybody, you lock up your building and you don't, you don't do nothing for the people. Right. So [00:39:00] not even in the word that you're bringing forth or the actions of the congregation throughout the week, right?

Like this edifice is not even available for our community to heal and to gather and be together. And so I did, I had to mourn that disappointment that we weren't living each other. What I really think that the church could have been. 

Kendra: Yeah, child. I mean, one thing, I'm sorry, but one thing that Dr. Conerway also talked about when someone asked her about, you know, the Baptist church is, you know, how do we create the safe space that she's talking about?

And, and she was saying, talking about. Recounting those times when we'd been hurt or we needed healing. And what are the things that you were missing and how you would hope somebody would have dealt with you? She was saying how there was a young minister who came before the church and who was training, he had started preaching when he was 14.

Ended up becoming an interim pastor as a teenager, found a little girlfriend, fell in love, [00:40:00] and she got pregnant. And he was like, I got, he's like, she got me pregnant. And she's like, what do you mean? He said, well, I had to, I had to go before the church and apologize. They made him go before the church and apologize.

Now, he eventually married this girl. But it's stuff like that. Like, why does, why does, why does he? What is he going before the church apologizing? Or like, or like, or like the grown woman, like the grown woman from the church that I grew up in who in her 40s got pregnant by her fiancé and they made her sit down for praise and worship.

Like she was sat down for like a year and some change. And I'm like, what is y'all doing? That was, that was one of your good tenors and you sent her down about what? 

Kelli: Like, it's stuff like that. That feels very, like, slave culture. Like, you went outside the norm, and so I'm gonna publicly shame you. [00:41:00] And give you lashes.

So everybody else doesn't fall out of line. That, that's how that felt, like, right here in my court. 

Kendra: That's exactly what that is. I don't, I can't do it. And so as long as we focus more on that, right, then like making sure people feel whole. And then like, we preach like, Oh, I once was broken. No, you broke now.

You broken now. You was broken yesterday. You're going to be broken again in two weeks. Stop telling people like, like, cause what it feels like is one day I was lost and now I'm found. And sometimes I almost fall back, but no, we're always in this state of being broken and being, and like, people feel like because of the way we offer this like punishment culture, that when they mess up, they got to go away.

Not knowing that like you too. Are messing up every day. And what does messing up even mean? And so back to Dr. Conaway, she tells we focus we right now, [00:42:00] our focus is not on the theology, it's the humanity. How are we, how are we honoring folks? Humanity, because people's humanity and how they express it are very different now.

And we can, the theology is not going to matter if we don't recognize the humanity. 

Kelli: And we know theology is made up, right? Like, let's just, let's just say it. Everybody picks their theology. And then the people who believe that thing go to that thing. Let me go back to my notes. 

Kendra: Sorry, not to interrupt, but let me go back to my notes.

Dr. Conerway, we gotta divorce ourselves from our preferences. Not talking about the church and what we want to see in the church. Do we want a museum of the things we love? Or do we want to get disciples? The hymn gotta be a certain place and all that stuff. Is that what we're concerned about? Are we concerned about whether two women are sitting in church?

Are we concerned about when they walk out of there they feel loved? They feel affirmed? Like, okay, I'm gonna leave it alone. Go ahead, Dr. [00:43:00] Chiyah. I see. Yeah, he was like. 

Chiyah: Oh, no, no. I just be sitting and taking it in. I'm thinking of two things. One, because of our over focus on sexuality in the church, and that being the litmus test for all things and not any other challenge in life or misstep my wrestling with things in, in church and theology or what we, we believe has always been in the context of LGBT.

Plus something or sex. And I just remember as y'all were talking about like, what are we doing? You lock up the church? Are you helping people? I wrote my equivalent of a dissertation or the in church or dissertation on the role of the Black church in the Black community It's really sad that we don't have there is not one in my estimation of things anymore But I remember when I was working in Pasadena a few years out of undergrad Which I, which is where I first started thinking like this guy is so loving.

I'm confused because when the [00:44:00] girl tells me your God says that I'm wrong because of who I love, I have to do something with that. So that's when I started kind of wrestling with things. And I just remember going to All Saints Church in Pasadena. Think of the Presbyterian Church. On the last break. And it was open and like people in movies on the east coast I was able to go sit in this big sanctuary and have a moment by myself with God And then I started reading their bulletin and I remember being like everything here that is written out like pages It felt like full of opportunities events I was like, everything here feels like what the church is supposed to do, but if I go back and say there's LGBTQ affirming, that's what everybody's going to focus on and that's going to be a problem.

So I was just kind of remembering that just now. And then I was also thinking about the fact that my being church, like you guys are kind of have these generational church things. I have like, [00:45:00] we all just served and worked. And so there is a line between reserving forever. Getting burned and hurt and wounded by my boss because I actually was an employee And then when I came back, it was just as a parishioner and that's where my kind of drifting away Started and so like I don't have this Working to do which was actually in some ways good because when my god, baby mama was pregnant the youth director refused to make her sit down and People had a world of a time with that like how dare she be at the front welcoming people You know Coming in, she's pregnant.

It's okay. So like, I appreciate those experiences, but just as a person who's not having anything grounding me, it made it very easy for me to kind of just, and my mama, bless her soul. Not being here also makes it easier to not have the pressure. To to get up and go because she wouldn't have it probably even 42 year old me.

She'd be like, you [00:46:00] know Um, but anyway, those are just the things that i'm thinking about as i'm listening my own 

Kendra: I mean and you know, I don't want to belabor this and as we might wrap up I want to think about because you something you said about Chiyah And I think it's true that a lot of times we talk about church Black church hurt church hurt We talk about in the realm of sexuality, right whether it be lgbtq plus You concerns or just sex, right?

Somebody being sad for being pregnant, whatever. Is, I'd love to talk about maybe for a later episode. The difference in responses to Beyonce versus Usher because the church ladies were losing their mind about Usher in the Facebook. And it weren't, there were no judgments about the subject matter of his songs or grinding up on people.

It was all fun and games.

Yeah. Nobody said anything about that, but we didn't, but Beyonce has affirmed the gay community in this last album. And for many, she is [00:47:00] the devil personified. Very interesting. She tried, she attempted to create church with the renaissance and they have made her out to be the devil. Now, I will say, as a non sequitur.

I, I felt like she could have held that single off cause she didn't have to overshadow my, my, my homie Usher's moment, but that's another story for another time, but you know, it's a very interesting how, how, how the church, how church folks, nobody had anything to say about Usher, the way he lives, what he talked about in the songs, what he was doing.

And he is, I guess, as close as, as close, as close as a male equivalent to Beyonce that we have. I think. 

Chiyah: Hmm. I would, I would like to talk about it at another time, like we can devote some time to it because I want it. I'm just saying this so it's negative on both. My own relationship to sex and sexuality.

I laugh because every time I send y'all something about, about Usher, I talk about his smile, but I'm [00:48:00] actually talking about his body and his draws. But I start with the smile. But I, but no, I really thought about that this week, like, the smile does a thing. It does. I swear, he wouldn't attack me when I went through this process.

But I've been thinking lately, like, Why do I, why, why don't I say the body, but that's my own 

Kendra: Free yourself, girl, 

Chiyah: Chest and the abs and the muscles and the sweat 

Kendra: Free yourself and, and, and this is another note for the future episode. Usher had a whole big booty Atlanta stripper on stage for years for the Las Vegas show.

Kelli: And did! 

Kendra: I didn't hear nobody complain about it except when Dietrich Haddon took his wife to the concert. Church people was big mad because she loves Usher and Dietrich Hagen was like, y'all not, y'all not going to make me feel bad about taking my wife to see Usher. But that's for a later episode. 

Kelli: Awesome.

This is a juicy convo, y'all. [00:49:00] I'm trying to noodle on my takeaways. And I think that the takeaway about my theology must speak to my humanity. That really is resonating with me. And when I think about like where I've currently landed. It is because my humanity is centered. It's not invisible or seen as irrelevant.

Kendra: That's a word. We, we, we, we have, we can give ourselves permission to center our own humanity in our, our concept, our conceptions of the, of the divine and our theology and all of that.

Kelli: Well, speaking of her permission, my takeaway is giving myself permission to, I don't know, I'm not a dreamer, but to imagine a different way, you know. Thanks, [00:50:00] Faith. It came up for me as we were talking about the political space like it it can't be what it's been but Give in room for the possibility that it could be.

Kendra: Yeah, I think I definitely want to echo Kelli with the piece about you know, centering My humanity in my theology is a freeing moment and I just speak to my takeaway, which is really about offering myself more grace because even though i've been a A rebel for many years I still go back to those feelings of like man, but I got to do better about how I show up how I practice You You know, and in recognizing that I am practicing my faith, it just looks different.

And so listening to, like I said, re listening to Dr. Conerway, is there more that I could do to honor myself? Sure. But recognizing that my, my faith walk [00:51:00] looks different. So my practice looks different and that I'm actually doing a lot. For instance, even printing out my vision board and putting it in the back so that I get, you know, I always see it as a, as a spiritual practice for me.

Just really offering myself more grace. And in that way, and part of that would be back to you to center my humanity and my theology. That's amazing. Any other takeaways, anything else we should leave the good people with? 

Kelli: No, just that we all share the links. So you all can join us in the conversation.

We want to hear what you think. If you, after you have a chance to watch Dr. Conroy's book, we'd love to hear what you 

Kendra: Cool. Before we go, I want to shout out our producer, Leatra Tate, excuse me, Dr. Leatra Tate, for getting us in order getting us off the ground. We've been working on this idea for quite some time.

So it's great to have a producer kind of helps us kind of put it all together and get it out into the world. So I want to shout Dr. Tate out.

Kelli: Thank you, Dr. [00:52:00] Tate.

Well, that's all for this episode. Don't forget to follow us. And our group chat on IG at this womanist work until the next episode

Peace

Oh, I finally did it guys Oh, shoot. I can't do the wait. Wait when I 

Kendra: did the heart the little hearts went up on my screen. How cute? This took weeks. Yeah chop. I look like a I look like a bad crip like Like I can't even do my own game time I hope that can be an outro.