SPEAKER_00: 0:00

The views shared in this episode represent Kelly and Kendra, not our mamas, partners, church, job, or sponsors. Welcome back to This Woman Is Word, our podcast. Today we have a very special guest that we are honored to have join us. And I could read her bio, but I I think that she can tell us about herself better than we can tell you. So I'm going to kick it right off and just ask our illustrious guest to introduce herself. Hi, my name is Ebony Janice. I go by Ebony Janice. And I am just, first of all, very grateful to be invited to this conversation with the both of you. I appreciate that you didn't read my bio because bios are so miscellaneous. Like, is it even true? It's true, but the point is, I am a free woman on a love journey. I am the author of the most recent book, All the Black Girls Are Activists, A Fourth Wave Woman, His Pursuit of Dreams is Radical Resistance, and have introduced this so-called fourth wave woman and actually go by the title of a hip-hop womanist. So I'm assuming those things are the reasons that I was invited to talk on this womanist work podcast. Yes. I am sorry to be here. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we'll get to that whole concept of womanist hip-hop, hip-hop, womanist hip-hop or hip-hop womanist later because I'm really excited about talking to someone from the generation who would call themselves a hip-hop womanist when I was kind of born out of the hip-hop feminist generation with John Morgan, and I'd like to see the continuation of that trajectory and see what that means to you. But, you know, the Boca Rock podcast is about Kelly and I growing up as Gen X women, growing up in church, and still being very aligned with a lot of the spiritual values and a lot of the values that we learned in the church and learned from very religious families, but also have major critiques to them. And we were college roommates so we've known each other for 30 plus years and we've been talking about these things for years and we decided to bring it to the pod because we didn't want to have a podcast just to have it we wanted to have something to talk about and God knows for 30 years we've been talking about this thing and so I'm really you know we can talk about pop culture we can talk about hip-hop we could talk about being a free woman and all those things but I really want to just kind of kick off where we where we kind of enter the conversation around spiritual formation and womanist theology and ask about you know in womanist theology one thing we do is we we center the the experiences of black women and so i'm wondering how your spiritual leadership training and your theology shapes the way you see liberation work oh that's such a good question well two things first of all i i have said womanism saved me because i was in a theological shift in a major theological shift to the extent that i was like jesus are you real at all like that like that place of not just kind of questioning my faith but really in Jesus Christ, period. And what. relationship or role Jesus Christ was going to play in my life. And I love that we are black women who are Christian adjacent, you know, or Christian who are, who are able to, and have the privilege in this season of our lives to ask those questions. Because for years I was, you know, quote fingers in the closet about the fact that I was asking these questions. So in a season where we get to talk about this out loud and not have all of the black women in the world, you know, or online say, this is demonic. Y'all go in hell. Many of us are, asking these questions, at the very least, asking these questions. So I say womanism saved me because part of what brought me back to Jesus as a part of my actual theological truth system was womanism. It was in a pulpit, talking about the Bible in a way that I had never heard the Bible spoken of. I had never heard Hagar in particular talked about as an African woman. I had never heard that framing. Obviously, I grew up hearing about Hagar. I grew up hearing about Sarah. I grew up hearing about, you know, these different characters in the Bible and nobody had ever made her African. Nobody had. And if they ever made her African, nobody had ever noted the importance of the fact that she was African. And that was really just kind of eye opener for me of like, wait a minute. God is not. I am. I am in this text. You know, God is thinking about me even in the Old Testament. God is thinking about me in the New Testament. So that's number one. Number two, though, one of my honorable ancestors, which is my childhood pastor, Reverend Dr. Eddie N. Henry. Mind you, this man is not even have a high school education. You're going to get a doctorate though. taking the mic because I had a prophetic word, you know, teaching Sunday school, doing the things that I was doing. I know it was, I'm going to start singing. I know it was the blood because I got, the song lyric did not go there, but I know it was the spirit that was allowing this older black man from the South with, you know, who had not read Cone, who had not, you know, wasn't thinking about black liberation theology, who was able to look at me even as a young girl and say, let that baby preach, let that baby speak, let that baby, you know, prophesy, let whatever's coming up for her. And that was really kind of the beginning. And I'm saying let, but I don't, I, that just feels important because there were people being sat down in my Southern Black Christian experience, right? Being told this is not allowed. So let was absolutely an important, you know, contribution to, you know, me telling that part of my testimony. I have so many questions.

UNKNOWN: 6:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 6:29

Why you? What is it about your connection to spirit that brought you forth into this leadership role? It's funny. I like good questions that take us where we didn't mean to go because I'm about to go somewhere that I have never gone publicly. But nobody's ever asked me that question. Why you? I am fleshing out this idea for myself or really interrogating what I believe about reincarnation. It isn't language that I necessarily use or I just haven't owned it yet because I'm still thinking about it. And I've been thinking about it for years, which is a thing that I wish people would do. I wish you would think for a little bit longer before you just start saying words out loud, you know, spend time with yourself, with spirit, looking, you know, find the scholars, find the elders, the ancestors who are thinking about these things too. So that by the time you say something out loud, it is, you've thought this through. So I've been thinking about this for years.

UNKNOWN: 7:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 7:40

about the idea of reincarnation that we reincarnate, not just if that is a thing that I believe that I'm not just returning to do the same thing over and over again, that I, that I am in this lifetime in fleshing a lesson that I didn't learn in the last time. And this is my opportunity in this human experience to manifest as the embodiment of that lesson. And I feel like some of what brought this up for me was probably about 12 years ago now. Somebody tagged me in this picture on Instagram of this. It looks exactly like me. It's this photo exactly like me, but it was not me. And for years, I kept trying to figure out who this lady was. And then I found out that years later, Google photos, images made it possible to find out who she was. And her name is Aduni Idowu. I did not know that at the time. There was no name. It was just that she was one of Fela Kuti's wives. And so I'm like, okay, now I know who this lady is. So then I start thinking, well, I have to be related to her in some way. So we do the African ancestry to try to figure out if our ancestry connects to Nigeria. And as much as we can find, we have not found direct lineage to Nigeria. Nigeria. So I'm like, well, if it ain't my blood relative, then I must have returned. But I've been researching for years trying to find out this lady's name. Finally, 2019, I came across this book that somebody wrote about Fela and put several of the wives, not all of them, but put several of the wives in this book. And she's one of the wives in the book. And this is how I found out her name. And in her interview, I'm fully emotional saying this, in her interview, she said, I want my name to be known. I thought about that because I have been trying to get people to say my name properly since I was a little girl because I'm one of a few black girls who go by a double first name. And so there's that. But additionally, the idea that for years, the only way people have known her is as one of Fela Kuti's wives felt violent to me in the moment that I read that. That she's saying in this moment, I want my name to be known and we have assigned her as one of Fela's wives and so I thought you know who I am in this lifetime as a person I absolutely will reincarnate as myself be obsessed with myself for years until I could find my name so that I could say it out loud and that was kind of really the beginning of me really thinking about returning as ancestors or returning to continue work or returning to heal something and again it's a thing that I am continuing to trouble, but it is where I've landed. And so all those words to say, why me in this time, in this moment, to this work, I feel like it is ancestral. I feel like it is a part of my assignment in this lifetime. I feel like those, those that I know and don't know that I am doing work to give a voice or to ask some questions or to give some language at the very least for my grandmother, for my great grandmother. And there are just so many things, my own things, Thinking through this and dreaming and imagination and using my spiritual imagination, which is language that I kind of cultivated from something that Toni Morrison said. But it's that that that brings me to know. I believe that I believe that I'm healing for my grandmother. I'm saying some words that my great grandmother maybe thought but couldn't say. I think that's a lot of words to say. No, but it was so necessary. And before Kelly, I'm sure you have another question, but I have to interject and ask, were you one of those kids that people would say? that baby been here before absolutely okay which is a thing that I have I have asked particularly black Christian people who reject or resist the idea of reincarnation what do you mean there's no space for us to think about this when you say words like that baby got an old soul or that baby or or you know it's a cardinal outside oh that's mama how is that mama if you don't see the possibility of the soul or the spirit existing inside some other form. We have so many contradictions like that. We talk about hoodoo and all the other stuff and we be running around putting stuff under the thing and eating black eyed peas, but you know how we do. Anyway, sorry, go ahead, Kelly. No, no, just a really powerful offering for us to consider. So thank you for sharing it with us for sure. Absolutely. So can you talk a little bit about fourth wave womanism And I'm especially curious about what it offers to foremothers, because that's something that I'm really I think a lot about. And I think we've we've welcomed the ancestors into this conversation. I would love to make some connections there. Yeah. So first of all, I am always tickled to talk about a fourth wave of womanism. when the majority of the first wave womanists are alive still. So that is, it is a very audacious thing to say when, you know, Dr. Emily Towns is sitting right there, you know, when Dr. Renita Weems is sitting right there. And I love that at the same time, as kind of scary as it is as a scholar to say something like that, because, you know, people don't care. They will tell you to shut up publicly. And will. And will. So I love that. I love that they are alive because they have the opportunity then to either affirm or to offer critique about how we're thinking about this. But fourth wave womanism, really, to me, I started thinking about the idea of being in a fourth wave of womanism probably about 10, 15 years ago. I would say 10, 12 years ago. And what was happening is I am actually friends in real life with Sonia Renee Taylor. And I remember when she decided to, she used to wear wigs very often. I don't know if people know who Sonia Renee Taylor is. We went to the same high school. Sonia was well known in the poetry world. And I love to brag on Sonia about this because I love the origin of a thing. And people don't be given particularly Black women credit for the origin of a thing. Sonya Renee Taylor is one of the first people to ever go viral with a challenge. She created a challenge. It went viral. And there were not challenges like that going viral before Sonya Renee Taylor started the Ruckus Challenge, which stood for Radical Unapologetic Healing Challenge for us. This is back in 2011, 2011, 2012. She was wearing a lot of wigs at the time, and she decided to take her wig off on camera and then shave her head bald because she was dealing with some hair issues. And it was this really kind of radical moment because she's showing what her hair patches look like she's showing all this on camera and I thought I watched that happen I did my own records challenge which is I feel like I got it hidden on YouTube now because it was a very dramatic season of my life but I remember watching her in that season kind of evolve from talking about things in a particular way to really focused on feeling to really being focused on taking care of ourselves whole spirit soul and body and really having this conversation in such a way that was really talking about this is how we get free so it wasn't this supplemental idea that we should do this in our journey that it was this is how we are going to get free this is it and then I was also introduced to Dr. Monica Coleman in that season and was the work of Dr. Coleman, who is the one who's been credited for introducing a third wave of womanism. And so once I started to interrogate her work and its definition and how she's defining a third wave of womanism, I saw so much of where I identified myself, but there was also still something that was outside of the pulpit, which is really where that text at the time was focused. And really what I acknowledge that from a womanist theological perspective, so much of the canon is focused, have been focused at that point on preaching. And, but I acknowledge that being in this era, because I'm a, I'm an elder millennial. So I am in the era of grew up, you know, at the very beginning of social media, at the very beginning of technology, at the very beginning of that boom. So I have intimate relationship both without and with it. And the pulpit for my generation in particular I feel like had immediately started to evolve away from this particular place it was not a location it was early in the game we were using captions and blogs and you know all of these different social media platforms to share this word and so for the way that I have so there was even more of that that was kind of like okay this is a distinction if there is something different happening this is a distinction And I really loved that Dr. Monica Coleman talks about it in a wave because she's acknowledging that there is nothing in the wave that is exclusive or excluding first wave or second wave. The first wave is inside this, you know, crust as well. And so I'm thinking to myself over the years of really observing what else was happening. Trisha Hersey Patrick with the Knapp Ministry, Sheila Marie Taylor. Sheila Marie of Kirby Curly Conscious, who's thinking about play as a part of the actual work that black women should be having access to. Lauren Ash, who founded Black Girl and Home, who was basically talking about black women should have a safe space just to breathe. So we're talking about this moment where there is really a rise of black women who are focused on being whole, that we refuse to arrive at the so-called finish line and be on our deathbed. Yeah. But period, more than anything, I saw this remnant or this group of women ultimately saying, that is what we are supposed to be doing. Above marching, and that is never to say that marching or petitions or any of those things are not true. But before we do any of that, who would we be if we were to take such radical care? And so I brought Sonia Renee Taylor into the conversation earlier because she's been, she's even more, I think, mystical now than she was in the beginning of this journey. But I feel like I saw it happening I saw her talking about how energetically what will happen for us as we begin to transform internally is that we are going to be healing the earth and I feel like for black women I feel like for black people in general but I feel like for black women we have not really had the privilege or the luxury of thinking about the powerful transformative power of our healing that I I could heal so deeply and so intentionally that, that my family is now being healed from, you know, sickness and disease and mental health issues. Right. That is not just the inspiration of my healing, that there is something literally happening as a result of me being intentional in this space. And so I'm, I'm making this connection, even though Sonia would necessarily call herself a woman. Yeah. Yeah. But that, That is what I saw. I saw these women talking about this. I have been for years talking about dreaming as a part of our radical resistance and not dreaming as supplemental to, but that dreaming is a tool that we can use to propel ourselves into our destiny. And in our destiny, we are certainly free. That is a part of our destiny. And so that is where I came to the, I knew that we were in a fourth wave of womanism, particularly because these were women who weren't saying this is supplemental so that we can endure. this is what we are supposed to be doing. And this is very unique in this conversation that's been happening for several ways now. This is very unique in that we're not, we don't think that the pulpit is necessarily a particular place. We certainly, third wave womanists had already been thinking this. We certainly know that it isn't a specific religion or naming. We certainly know that at this point, but even more so, you know, many, many of us were not thinking about church or religion in any way, shape, form or fashion. We just knew that we needed to be healing. We needed to be coming. We needed to be evolving. And the way that we were going to do that work was through our wholeness, our wellness, our dreaming, our, you know, pushing, pushing forth in that way. Absolutely. I feel like listening to you talk about this. Well, first of all, Kelly, I know you would agree. I feel like you should have been in the group chat a long time ago, right? You know, I'm like, oh man, there's so much clarity in your thinking around things that we talk about all the time. One of our other co-founders of this podcast is not actively hosting generally, but she's also an elder millennial and she's slightly younger than us. And it's just interesting to see the slight difference in approach between just those few years between where elder millennials are and Gen X are and how inspired we have been by our elder millennial. And then to our producer's point, younger millennial friends who have just really centered liberation and healing and everything and all of their womanism and feminism, which has been the turning point. And which is why, you know, I have been following your social presence for a long time. Both Leitra and I have talked at length as well as Kelly about your book, Black Black girls are activists. But I was particularly taken recently, I think it was on Threads, where you were talking about how people are hell-bent on being misunderstanding Black women who do seek rest and who do seek easeful ways of liberation. And I think in many ways we can figure it out, but I really want to hear from you. Why do you think that is? Why is rest so threatening to dominant culture, particularly when we talk about our justice work? Nanny from eyes are watching God. I quote it in that post. The nigger woman is the mule of the world. There is no place on this planet that you can go where that has not historically been the case, particularly as a black American woman and knowing the history of how I am and a black American woman, right? That my ancestors were forced to, you know, away from their home. And I am, you know, a direct descendant of enslaved people. And Black, Dr. Renita Williams, actually Dolores Williams, who is a first generation or first wave womanist, actually one of the first womanist theologians credited for using that language of womanism in her publishing. But Dr. Dolores Williams talks about how Black women's, the subjugation of the Black woman's body, that Black women are the only living beings, human beings who have been used for both labor and reproduction she's making this connection to the way that you use animals the way like an ox or a bull or a horse or a donkey and the earth the way that you use the earth you continue to pull from it and that is the purpose of it it is a resource it is not a thing that you honor as divine or that you honor as living and so that matters you know in the context of understanding why people, if historically Black women in this era that we live in or this time that we live in, if historically Black women have only been experienced or received as for our labor and for what we can, our labor, our work, our reproduction, meaning creating more laborers, there is no way that you can see a soft, a well, a rested, a chilling, a you don't even want to hear that language as it pertains to black women. There's something extremely offensive. And I would also like to say as a forefather, I've been called forefather of this softness conversation. That as a forefather of this softness conversation, that I also take offense to the fact that the major way that softness is being presented is emphasis on the luxury aspects of it, right? There's an emphasis on that when there is absolutely full-blown definition and understanding of when we talk about softness, we are not talking about laying around on a lily pad, even though I want all my niggas to be able to lay around on a lily pad. Right, right. Yes. But the fact that the way that popular culture or the way that, you know, social media is forcing that conversation or that aspect of it. Meanwhile, there is a whole scholar sitting right here who has given us definition, who has continued to push back on that, who has continued to say that when we talk about softness, we're not talking about an aesthetic. We are talking about well black women. We're talking about regulating nervous system. We are talking about being fully seated in our bodies. And I pulled I have pulled actual softness architect to show that this ain't a new generation thing. Toni Morrison was sitting right there, fully seated in her softness, saying hard things. She is the evidence that Black women saying that we deserve to be well-rested, to be seated, to be soft, are not saying we don't want to do work. We're just saying I don't want to have to cuss you out in the middle of doing it. And I want to have tools and access and resources that support me to be able to be fully seated in my body when I say this hard thing. But because y'all so used to the nigger woman being a mule of the world, You are being obtuse when you hear her saying that we're resting. You are being obtuse when you're saying that get somebody else to do it. And this is the last thing I want to say, and I'll be lying because I grew up in America, so when I say this to Ann, Ann ain't Ann. But this is what I think I'm telling the truth. This is the last thing I want to say about that. I have found that when people want somebody to go to bat for them, they come find the Black women, right? Like, it's a thing that they do. Like, because she'll get them. Ebony Janice will get them told. Kelly will get them told. Kendra will get them told. I don't want to get nobody told. I don't want to. And so when I say get somebody else to do it, that doesn't mean that I don't agree that they need to be told. That means that what's happening in my body, every time you expect me to be the one to stand up and get them told, it's several generations too far. We're far beyond that. My immune system, we've seen studies proven that Black women are dealing with chronic illness at a higher rate who work in corporate America. at a higher rate than any other group of people. You know why? Because we always got a nice, nasty, cuss somebody out because y'all don't know how to talk to us. And then we can't even actually do the work to be fully seated in our bodies. No, get somebody else to do it. Meanwhile, I'm going to be over here playing with Kelly and Kendra. We're going to be minding our business. We're going to be healing. We're going to be resting. We're going to be playing. You know, this is what we're going to be doing. And the thing that I need you to know is that too is a worthy part of our contribution to what liberation will look like because I want the black girls That's why I say all the Black girls are activists. We have been doing this forever. If the Black girls don't do nothing else but heal and show up as ourselves, we did it. We did it, guys. We did it. I mean, I know it intellectually, but just in this moment, and Kelly can attest, this is kind of where I am because I'm a multifaceted girl. I'm a scholar girl. I'm a creative girl, but I also work a corporate job. And I've recently been telling people that were, y'all, it ain't going to be me this time. I just been saying that. And so I, when I tell you, I felt that thing, I felt that thing. I felt that thing. I just want to say that. I just, I just want to give a moment for that because you know that you are not the only person who has felt that or is currently feeling that. And I often use this example and I'm sure you working in corporate America, you have so many examples of this where we're in this moment with people who have so called themselves my so-called ally. Right. And, and a violent thing is happening to me. And nobody's saying anything. And the only way that I will be okay is if I get about my seated softness in order to address it. Because very often it is just me or just you. I got to address it because you're not going to get a part two to ever be able to treat me this way. So now I got to address it. We get out the room. Thanks so much for saying something about that, Ebony Janice. I was okay. Can I say bitch? Yes, you can. You should have said something in that moment. So when we say also get somebody else to do it, that really is a part of what we mean in that language as well. There is somebody else in this room who should be doing it. It should not be us all the time. I am the hierarchy and there is a hierarchy and the hierarchy of who we should be passing the microphone to and or in the hierarchy of who we should be listening to and or in the hierarchy of who need to be speaking up it should not be black women in this moment you know and I what I mean by that is this all this violence all this it's you and your cousins so why did you expect me to have to be the one to say here let me break this down for you we me and a 42 year old white woman why am I in charge on the conversation about anti-racism You are most intimate with it. It's you and your cousins. It's your behavior. It's your lived experience. You got to be an expert on this at this point. You see your mama, your grandma, your auntie. So why am I in charge? You call yourself my ally. Ally me then. Help me then. So it's that. It's I want us to continue to think out loud about that, about all the times that it's once we get out the room, then people want to thank. Thank you for saying something. Why didn't you say? Thank you for being so brave. Why weren't you? It should have been you. It should have been you. I see my Baptist line at this part in All the Black Girls Are Activists, where I talk about this theory that I have when it comes to microaggressions and moments like that. I call it where you show up is where I show out, which is, you know, I learned that from my Black mother. And I pointed out in the moment, when people do that kind of thing to me, I pointed out in the moment, oh, Ebony Janisse, thank you for being so brave. You should have said something. It was actually, you should have said something. that and not doing so actually contributed to the harm that I was experiencing that way in the moment where you show out is where I show out so that by the time you know we get home that's why your mama you know showed out on you right there so you don't get what you did right here the thing that's why so that's why I'm going to tell you right here in this moment this is what you did so that when I saw I got to come next week and say you know I felt harmed I don't know what happened I didn't remember that you know what you just did. You should have said something in the room and you contributed to the harm because you forced me to have to say it. I would hope that in the future that wouldn't happen again. It don't feel good. We just had that conversation last night. We sure did. Amen and Ashe. And you know, I'm about to go on a curve, but it made me think, flashback, one time, talking about being in the moment, your mama want to let you know, one time we had a choir rehearsal at the church. It was probably on a Tuesday evening and I wanted to get smart with my mother in the middle level in front of everybody. And my mother smacked the crap out of me on the, in the fellowship hall or whatever, the main level during problems, everybody was there. And I, But guess what? I never did that again. Now, I don't condone smacking no teens in the middle of things like that. But Lord, as soon as you said that, it took me back to that moment when I was like, I cannot believe she did that. I can't believe she has a nerve. In this very moment, in this very moment, and I feel it's important because the discomfort is also in that study around chronic illness. The discomfort is like I'm going to be uncomfortable by myself. I'd like to invite you all into this discomfort. Right now. I've always made the excuse what Kelly's talking about. I was telling her yesterday about something crazy happened and how I was so livid that I felt like if I spoke in that moment, I would have tore the whole thing down. So I said, I'm going to take a beat and come back to her later. And I think in that moment, I did make the right decision. But there are other times when I don't do it in that moment, it don't feel good. So then when I try to do it later, it feels like I feel deflated. I I feel like, why am I even bothering sometimes? Um, so yeah, I won't go on about that, but that was, that was really a man in our shape. And holding a lot of empathy for Black women who feel like if I say something, it's going to cost me something I can't afford, right? It's going to cost me this protection. It's going to cost me this job. It's going to cost me this persona that I've created. And I think that what I hear you, Ebony, Denise saying is that this fourth wave of womanism offers us an opportunity to heal so that we can do those things. Yeah. It's that and also... I want us to have this conversation more often and just put it on a quarterly roll for Black women to discuss this. Because when I started talking about this idea of where you show out is where I show out as it pertains to microaggressions, there's a lot of resistance to that for the very reason that you just said, that there is privilege. There has to be some privilege. You can't do that in real life. You can't do that in corporate America. You will lose something. You will. And so the two things that I say, one of the things is I have actually personally never been afraid to burn a bridge that led to a place where I wasn't safe anyways. So let's just like deal with that. You think that you are safe? You are not safe. You think that not saying something is preserving this experience or that you're going to lose something? You are not safe. And we think that, you know, keeping the job or the opportunity or the experience is keeping us safe. You mean staying in this abusive experience is keeping us safe? Well, we got to fix it from the inside out. You mean getting beat up on every single day is preserving it, is saving it, is keeping us safe? It is not safe. It's not safe. And so what I'm offering is that doing the work that this, you know, fourth wave or the so-called fourth wave of womanism is offering us supports us. And I'm going to go back to Toni Morrison because she is my softness archetype because we have seen Toni Morrison sit in a white woman's face and call her little, which a little self, you know, we have seen Toni Morrison sit in a white man's face and ask him, you know, do you think that makes you bigger? You know, other than that, right? We see, and she did it. like this. When I talk about the seat, your seat itself, which is that myself and another thinker came to several years ago. I was talking about, she was talking about Toni Morrison and I said, you know what? The seat of Toni is what we really should be seeking. You're looking for, if you need an example, if you need an archetype, Toni Morrison is such a profound example of that. Very Obatala energy, very like this rooted in her body. And still this little tender voice never had to scream, shout, never. And I'm not saying that screaming, shouting isn't a part of our another softness archetype. Solange Knowles has revealed to us that, you know, we got the right, we got a lot to be mad about. So we have to be angry and to be mad, right? But Toni Morrison has this softness archetype is her shoulders are relaxed. She is deep exhaled. She's sitting down in her body. You know what it feel like when you got to get about your body. You automatically... You know, we got language for it. It's called bucking, right? And you know what it feels like when you buck. Your body's tense. You got to get up. Your stomach gets in a knot. I'm talking about not just this woo-woo idea. I'm talking about physically being fully seated in your body. That is this idea. That is what I'm talking about when I talk about softness. And so what does it mean then to have these tools to do the work to be seated so that in the moment that's something wild is happening to you, that you can look at it from your fully seated self and say, and say from your fully seated self, this is harmful. That's it, right? I don't even got to cuss nobody out. All I got to say in this moment, and I have my own lived experience is that, is that because I've been doing this work for so many years, I've been practicing this. I've been practicing staying in my seat. I've been practicing my softness. I have, I'll tell this example and then we can do the benediction to this, but I was walking to, I was in a class with a bunch of white people. There's only one other black Black person in the class. And we're doing a round discussion of our final projects. And my final project was actually on Black women's body ownership as a justice issue, which this is about to be ironic what I'm about to say. And the person that went right after me, I didn't say her name, but I had to use her, an experience that I had with her in that semester in my presentation. So I made this video, you know, little video talking about Black women's body ownership as a justice issue. And I was talking in this particular section about the invisibilization of Black women, that you don't even see Black women until you need them for labor. This particular white woman had introduced herself to me three times that semester. Here's the issue. I was the only cisgender Black woman in full-time high residency at that institution. Miss ma'am. You know who I am.

UNKNOWN: 41:01

Miss ma'am.

SPEAKER_00: 41:03

If I don't remember your name and you look like 12 other people here, I know you ain't forgot me. I know that from the bottom of my heart. So I never said her name, but I did acknowledge this experience. And by the third time I had to tell her, I had to tell her, I had to get up out of my seat a little bit, but I'm sitting simultaneously. I'm on my cell phone. After my presentation, I'm on my cell phone, breaking up with my boyfriend. So, so I really wasn't thinking about nothing. I did my presentation and then I adjusted my body to where my cell phone was sitting on my lap and I'm cussing a nigga out. That's it. I'm not thinking about anything going on. I'm just here to get my A and to cuss this nigga out. It's her turn to go to do her presentation, her presentation, hers, not mine, hers, because mine is done. And she says, well, I don't really feel comfortable doing my presentation. In fact, I think I'm going to leave because I'm not feeling really held or safe in this space. And then she said, because the way that Ebony Janice is sitting right now, and I said, let me stop you right there. I just finished giving a presentation entitled Black Women's Body Ownership is a Justice Issue. You are not in charge of what's happening with my body, nor am I even thinking about you. But even if I was, you are not in charge of what's happening with my body. Mind you, classroom full of white people, my allies, my so-called allies, saying nothing, letting this white woman try to make So there's one other black person in the class and they just giggle because that's what we do. We just get with each other. And so she goes on to say, well, I think that I'm going to leave. And I say, actually, let me stop Kalika again. Y'all aren't problematic because y'all are letting her continue this and it's violent. And I just did a full blown presentation on how this is violent, but I'm the victim. So I'm going to storm out. So I grabbed my dick and the black person is now full blown cracking up laughing everybody else is sitting there looking scared I grab my things I walk to the door and I say I just want to let y'all know that I ain't really mad I don't really care but she not the victim and then I slam the door and I believe in that I really believe in that from my seat itself I was able to say this is violent and the fact that y'all are letting this happen is wild to me I didn't scream I didn't kick I didn't fuss I didn't cuss I just you know called it out and then I used my, you know, my own desire to be the victim. I wasn't no victim, but, you know, I used my own desire to, like, I want to storm out. Yeah, I want to be centered. I want, you know, when I walk out of here, I want y'all to be like, dang, why did she do that to Ebony Janice? Which a little bit is what happened, a little bit it wasn't, but the point is, you know, you're not about to storm out of here, girl. I want to go over here and watch the Netflix series anyways. I think, what had just came out on Netflix, the big black guy from... It don't matter. The point is, Luke Cage. Luke Cage just came out on Netflix. And I'm going to get back to Luke Cage anyway. But yeah, so I believe in that. I believe that doing the healing work that supports us to be seated makes it possible for us to have really hard conversations in the moment because when you let it pass, it's more how often have you addressed the microaggression that happened a week ago? And the person who aggressed is pretending like it either didn't happen or didn't happen. And so in this moment, it what you're doing right now is an aggression. So I'm going to go. I'm being aggressive. Yeah. Yeah. I find, I find when I show up like that, which I do often when I'm like that quiet kind of people really are afraid of me, but it's okay. Like there's a sense that the power is real. There's a lot of intersections and I'm sorry, Kelly, but do you want to ask something? There's a lot of intersections between like your work and my work, because I also study cultural anthropology. I've come from hip hop. I've worked in the hip hop industry. So I'm just interested in how all this stuff informs your theology like your cultural anthropology training and where hip-hop fits in to like and shapes your theory your theology and your activism because I'm very fascinated by that yeah I'm from Sandusky Ohio and there's yeah and there isn't really much in Sandusky Ohio except for its amusement park called Cedar Point and but I grew up the first cassette that I ever bought with my own money. was First of the Month by Bone Thugs-N-Harmony. That's not true. It was Thuggish Ruggish Bone by Bone Thugs-N-Harmony. Thuggish Ruggish Bone. And of course, you know, we grew up in the era. We grew up in the best era of hip hop. I don't care what anybody says. We absolutely did. We grew up in the best era of hip hop. So we all have rewound and, you know, to learn the lyrics. And I, at a very young age, was deeply invested in that though. I was so interested in Bone Thugs-N-Harmony. I was interested in hip hop before that, but there's something very fascinating about being from Ohio and having these rappers from Cleveland going viral, for lack of better words, or getting all this notoriety. And so I was really listening to the lyrics for the first time. I loved hip hop music before Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, but I would say that Bone Thugs-N-Harmony, this is my first real investment in really listening to the lyrics. And because of where I'm from, this little small, predominantly white, you know, kind of rural town is very different from Cleveland, which is just up the street. And that, as a little girl, very fascinating to me, like what they're talking about and what my lived experience is, is so drastically different. And so, of course, at the time, I didn't have the language for it. But as I got older and then ended up getting into my cultural anthropology studies, I learned that what I was essentially doing as a little girl, interrogating the lyrics and thinking about this cultural uh the same the sameness and the differences of what was happening for me and what was happening for you know tatasha there are very two very different things happening and what is that what is how is that so how is that possible and so that that brings in the politic of when i define womanism uh my womanism myself as a hip-hop womanist it's a socio-political spiritual religious tool that we're using to And hip hop is feels important. Definitely inspired, of course, by Joe Morgan and those who came before me talking about hip hop feminism. What makes my hip hop womanism, it's, you know, this particular thing is because I was simultaneously raised by the church and by hip hop. And to name both of those things that you will in my preachment, you know, or whatever the work it is that I'm doing, both things are important. will be happening. I could be in a workshop for, you know, Walmart, corporate Walmart, and I will be quoting Jay-Z at some point. And I will be, you know, quoting first Corinthians at some point, it is just going to happen. And a part of why that feels, you know, so important to my justice work is because I'm ultimately trying to reveal and teach other black women that you can be in any space and be your actual authentic self that, that I should There's a scholar, her name is Dr. Kashima Hutchinson, who does this comparison between Meek Mill and Maslow. And she says, she's basically saying from this perspective, from the sociological perspective, why is one more credible than the other? Why, if you were in a corporate conversation and you quoted Maslow, nobody would ask any questions. But if you brought up Meek Mill, people would ask questions about that. But they're saying the exact same things. In fact, Meek Mill might be a more credible social theory than Maslow because it's both his lived experience and he understands it and he can, you know, flesh it out to his peers. Maslow, you got to break that down into, you know, language for it to even make any sense to most people. And here he is doing it in like 15 different verses. And so I have been doing the same thing when I came to Kashima's work. I have been doing the same thing from a theological perspective. I have been asking this ethical question of why is Paul credible and Jay-Z is not credible? in this conversation when they're saying the exact same thing. And so being able to bring all of that into my liberation work or my imagination of who we will be when we arrive at freedom, hopefully is, not hopefully, I know for sure, I know this with certainty, that we will be ourselves when we arrive there, which means to me that part of the work of us arriving there is being ourselves, doing that work, interrogating lyrics as a little girl and turning into me saying, well, I can't separate these things. It's part of who it is that I am. And it's in my work work. It's in my spirit work. It's in, you know, it's in how I'm existing. So it feels necessary and essential to include that in the naming. Awesome. Kelly, I'm going to pass it to you. But before you do that, I wanted this one thing that you were talking about, you know, marking differences between the work that the Joan Morgans of the world are doing and what you're doing, obviously the theological perspective. But I think the other piece is as a person who came from that. When you came to the music industry, I came from, I'm younger than, I'm probably about 10 years younger than Joan, but I think you know, I worked in the music industry around the time. I feel like the Danielle Smiths and the Joan Morgans and the Dream Hamptons and a lot of them represent kind of hip-hop feminism as a survivorship. They survived hip-hop when so many didn't. And so as their feminist telling of it is what really roots it. But I feel like what I love about what you all are doing is like you don't need to not to say you haven't gone through things right but you haven't had to survive the misogyny and the patriarchy of hip hop in that same kind of way before you got to the healing that the healing you're leading with the healing which I find very interesting and which I find so inspirational by your generation is like we ain't got to go to hell and back to know that we deserve more. Well shout out to Joe Morgan shout out to you know the I'm going to bring, you know, even Dr. Brittany Cooper into this, you know, you know, shout out to them. Hopefully you don't have to go through that. They have certainly made it possible that by the time, you know, me and the homies started thinking about it in this way, there are things that we have language. We have, you know, much more of a platform. We have the ability to be able to speak to it in such a way because we're certainly standing on their shoulders. And so that definitely is a part of it. But because my hip hop womanism is from this theological perspective, we're definitely dealing with, you know, massage noir and we're dealing in the church context or in the spiritual context. I am, though I don't identify as Christian any longer, Jesus is still a thing for me, but I am an initiated Ifa priest and I am also a Black American woman who is, you know, grown up in the Black church and, you know, hoodoo is certainly a part of, you know, my heritage as well. And so I've experienced so much, so much religious hierarchy, particularly, you know, in misogyny. I've experienced that from jump. I've been teaching Sunday school since I was six, preaching from the pulpit since I was eight years old. And like, there is no iteration of my spiritual, religious leadership or cultivation that has has not included somebody thinking that they're in charge, right? There is no, but I bring in my being a black American woman, having, you know, navigated these different spaces and, you know, realities for myself because I am a black American woman who was initiated into IFA and I have critiques. I have critiques about, you know, why the Babalaw is the only one can do certain things. It, I, I love what is, what IFA has offered me. I feel like part of my path that is taking me deeper into the possibility of becoming actual Ebony Janisse in this lifetime. I don't have to do this human experience again after this time around, right? So I love it. This isn't a critique in the sense of like, don't do this. This is me just saying, yeah, I got critiques of the niggas over here too. Absolutely. I have questions, I have thoughts. And so as someone who is still thinking about womanism, even in this context, even from this this, you know, religious or this, you know, spiritual tradition perspective, I, I'm saying like, yeah, we still, we're, we're trying to move from surviving this to thriving in this and, and figuring out how to continue to interrogate, um, with our elderly, you know, maybe even me with my allow, maybe me with my Yanifa, with my godmother and my godfather, you know, just some of the things that have come up for me and understanding the history and understanding and being able to push back sometimes and say, I don't, I don't necessarily know if for me personally, that will forever make sense in my journey because I am black American and location makes a difference in how we practice faith. It's just a fact. So, so yeah. So shout out to the, to the four mothers and you know, the, the, what the work that they did to make it possible that we don't have to go through all of the same ways, you know, have the language and, It's so much privilege now to be able to say, stop right there. And let's, you know, let's talk about this ashy. By the way, I'm from Youngstown, Ohio. So I know the Ohio and I'm from Youngstown, Ohio church because my grandfather was a pastor in church. So, so, so, so I get it. Go ahead, Kel. I'm sorry. I'm trying to decide which direction I want to go. I think the curiosity is coming up. for me because um you've mentioned so many greats who are still here um what does it look like for y'all as community do y'all come together um how how are you all in relationship with each other across the different waves of womanism I I don't have that are the scholars that I've mentioned I don't I have not hung out with any of them maybe other than in some ways Dr. Monica Coleman um I am a fan. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. I just stopped myself because the next part of that is. Yeah, I'm a fan. And I will say that the elder womanists have affirmed my work in such profound ways. Prior to All the Black Girls Are Activists coming out, I had an altar that I built specifically for All the Black Girls Are Activists. And my number one, and every day I would go to this altar and I would write on this little green sheets, these little green sheets of paper, my prayer for the book. And the most consistent prayer that I would drop into that space is, I pray that the elder woman will receive my book and be proud of me. And This is specific language that I use that they will receive my book well and be proud of me. And I was doing a conversation with Dr. Melanie Jones, who is over the Katie Geneva Cannon and womanist studies. I just made up that title of the name, but basically, you know, I was doing a Facebook conversation with her right as the book came out. And Dr. Anita Weems, who I talk about probably an introduction and maybe a couple other times, but she's in the chat. And somebody has said something and she said, yeah, somebody gave her the book and she's read it. And she just said, I'm very proud of you. That's just like... you niggas can't tell me nothing. Like anybody else, you can have all the critiques you want of me. You know what I'm saying? One of the first wave woman is, even if she didn't say, I thought you were, I think you're a great writer. I think you're, you know, a believable scholar. And she didn't even say that to me. She said, I'm very proud of you. And so, but there were so many other, there are so many other elders who have doubt about the book and, you know, about what we're thinking. And they affirm and they agree that there certainly is something very unique and particular about what's happening right now. As far as community, I feel like the women in general, like my girlfriends, you know, we identify as womanist and or we identify or a lot of my girlfriends identify as black feminist. But there are quite a few of us who identify as womanist as well. And I don't see us as particularly different. I think about Alice Walker, what she said when she came to the term of womanism is that at the very least, we should be able to name ourselves. And so I don't have a judgment of people who not who don't call themselves womanist, particularly black women who don't call themselves womanist, but that, you know, we're just having conversations. We're just in conversation with each other. Like, like we, here we are right now, you know, earlier when I was talking about that, I've been thinking about this, this idea of reincarnation. When I say that I've been thinking that I'm in the group chat, like y'all, I'm talking out loud to the homies, you know, I'm saying these words out loud. I'm giving them the opportunity to, to, you know, the, I say that, you know, we are, we spark things when we are in conversation with each other and we co-create knowledge with each other when we're in conversation with each other is that you say something that we've had that moment several times, even in this conversation where you might be saying something and I'm like, you know, I'm going to lean in a little bit because something that you're saying is language for me that I, I've, I've experienced that, but I didn't have that language. And now I get to live with that language in such a way. that a week from now, something you just said to me today is going to create something new. Or even in this moment, something new, new thought, an emerging thought is already happening just as a result of this conversation. So we're doing, that is how we should be thinking. Yeah. We should be thinking in community with each other. And so I would say that's what me and the homies are doing in general. And they are, my contemporaries are in the hierarchy of affirmation. I write about that in the next book, The Hierarchy of Affirmation, which for Black women. But in the hierarchy of affirmation, my contemporaries, like the homies whose work I love, you know, who are, I mentioned, you know, Sheila Marie, I mentioned Lauren Ashe, I mentioned these, you know, these other Black women who are thinking, you know, I'm thinking with them and when they tell me good job or when they say this is amazing, when they say that is, I needed that or, you know, when both of you are like, yes, you know, even in this conversation, it's such a, it is only only beneath elder Black women, right? It's the only thing that's been, like, my contemporaries is, like, number two, like, y'all can't tell me nothing. The homies said I said something, so I said something, and that's it. That's what that, I think, community looks like, is me and the homies just kind of in the group chat and, you know, in our time together, just thinking together and what's coming from that. Yes, thank you for that. That's one. We want every Black woman to have a group chat. Yes! no black woman alone we want folks to find community so yeah I really double tap on that and you were saying you want every black woman to have a group chat I feel like for deep reasons I want every black woman to have a group chat because some of the stuff y'all be posting online they need to be in a group chat get it get it off public and put it in a group chat baby boy we don't need to see that your therapist your journal or your group chat should be seeing that that's not public oh you would just I actually, Kelly, that thing I was watching earlier with Laverne Cox, Dominique basically told her that. She's like, girl, some of what you said in that post, you should have been in a group chat with us. That was not for social media. I felt that in my heart. That was not for public. Yeah, that was not for public, girl. As we wrap up, I want to give you space to see if there's anything you had to ask us because to your point, these conversations can be generative for everybody and if there's something that you want to ask us before you know we wrap everything up if you don't it's fine but just wanted to make space for you either say something you ask question or say something you want to leave folks with before we leave I would love to give you all the opportunity to reflect something major that came up in the last conversation in your last podcast and what you're thinking about for the next podcast because sometimes folk be either just being introduced in this conversation so get a chance to know that y'all be having fire conversations all the time what what was dope about the last conversation what is the next conversation that you're thinking about having that you know will continue to take this womanist work forward well dang I wasn't prepared to do work I love it I love it what I really liked about the last conversation is it was so intergenerational so we had my aunt on to talk about her spiritual journey and then we had Ken Kendra's cousin on. And it's the first time we've had family on the podcast. So it's interesting to hear my aunt's perspective of our family, faith, the traditions, and then how I experienced it. It was also that thing about memory, things that sometimes that are traumatic that we push to the side and say, oh, no, I don't remember that. And then as it came back forward, I was like, oh, wait, that meant a thing to me. Let me kind of grapple And so how do we have more of those spaces? Because I think a lot of times we we generalize elder black women as still being deeply rooted in their faith tradition in the same way. And many of them are also interrogating their faith and trying to grapple their things that my mom is talking about. I'm like, I have so many questions right now. So that definitely is something that I'm thinking about from future. I mean, from the past. from our last most recent podcast what about you Ken actually I'm thinking about that podcast because secondly that was like the one before the last one I'm thinking about the intersection between the last podcast and that one because Keisha my cousin was on that episode and it was interesting to hear her talk about her deconstruction of her faith because I never heard her say that word before so like there were things that I knew about what she was contending with but I didn't hear that language so I'm like oh I meeting my cousin again for the first time my first cousin who I grew up with playing in the backyard and getting whoopings with you know hearing her really break down her experience but also kind of hearing in it Kelly I don't know if you heard this like there was something that Auntie Debra brought to the table that I felt like gave Keisha permission to pursue what could be next for her and that deconstruction was a continuous process and that maybe there is another spiritual path for her And that just because she hasn't found it yet, it's okay. So there was some liberation there. But then also to have my aunt who was in the last episode with your pastor, my aunt who's also an executive pastor and currently a doctoral student in divinity, talk about first her experience as a black woman growing up in a church with a father who's a pastor and now on her own journey of leading. And some of her key points around like when you're in a meeting and if it don't feel right it's probably because you're probably supposed to be leading the meeting and that was like how to wrestle with her calling was I was like ooh but also I got excited because she listened to the last episode with Keisha and she hadn't heard any of that stuff about her deconstruction and she was like oh my god that was profound I'm so proud of my nieces that you know that I got to see that so just to see my family in these different spaces of their own womenist path and being able to have provided platform for that on the podcast this season is really like is really giving me all the things I love that. I'm so glad that y'all said that because I haven't listened to the last episode, but they just inspired me to have some conversation. There's some, it makes me feel a little emotional because in my family there, I don't know that there are a lot of people that I could have that conversation with. But when you talked about hearing your cousin say something and it surprised you, I want to figure out what it looks like to try to start the conversation because I don't even know who might surprise me over here you know I don't even know I just be all out here like and because they're not they might not be there which is perfectly fine I don't know where they are right so that was beautiful I'm glad that you said that I'm glad that I asked that question I'm glad that you asked it too yeah we haven't had time to reflect and I think for future it's how do we create more spaces for black women to have these conversations off of social media but in can We had a live recording for Mother's Day and it was really powerful to bring 12 black women together to talk about mothering and all of its different forms. I mean, it was healing for some people. It was revealing for some people. And we want to be able to do more of that. So, yeah. So takeaways, takeaways. I'll give you another opportunity, Ebony Janice, if there's any other takeaways from the conversation or like just last words you want to leave folks with. before we go. The last words that I would like to leave people with before we go is that, for Black women in particular, is that it is okay for you to pursue yourself. That I believe that if there is sin, if that is language that you have for yourself, it will be if you leave this earth as not actual you. I believe that your divine work Your holy work is becoming actual you. You know why I believe that? Because I believe the reason that Jesus Christ came to earth was to reveal to us what God enfleshed would look like. Now, here you are, God enfleshed as the opportunity to reveal something to us about God that we can only know through actual you. The Bible says the earth is groaning out with labor pains, waiting for the revealing of the sons of God, the The earth is in pain waiting for you to be revealed. And so pursuing yourself, pursuing your sovereign self, pursuing your whole self. If that is the work that you are doing, you are doing the work that you were called here in this human experience to be doing. I believe that all my heart and all my soul. May the Lord have a blessing to the readers, hearers and doers. Amen. Amen. That was a benediction right there. I also think on a side note, Dr. Tate, I think that's the title of the episode. The earth is in pain waiting for you to be revealed. My God. Why don't you church at the very end? That's how Black women go. I'll be trying to hold it in, but it is becoming out my scores and stuff. Absolutely. My takeaway is around spiritual leadership. Who do I want to be as a spiritual leader?

UNKNOWN: 1:09:32

I

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:32

yeah, that's my takeaway. You can, before you say goodbye to the people.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:38

Yo, that's the title. You're, you're, the earth is in pain waiting for you to be revealed. I mean, and just this idea of if, if sin is a thing, leaving the earth, having never been yourself, that is a word. And I feel like it's, I embody, I like, I feel like I live my life like that, but I feel like I spend, I do so much talking in circles, trying to talk to young people about that. And I feel like I could just give them that. I'm going to say, Ebony Janice said, sin is a thing. If, leaving earth, having never been yourself. My God. That's it. I'm curious if you had any other takeaways from the episode that you wanted to share.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:14

Um, yeah. So this was actually something that I had written down for the, uh, potential episode title until we kind of got more into the conversation, but your divine work is becoming actual you. I feel like that is something that really is reminiscent of the entire episode. I think, um, And that is a takeaway that I think we can all kind of return to no matter what. It's just remembering that you are not doing yourself any favors. And again, this is interesting as someone who has not really grown up particularly religious or grown up in the church. But what I have heard from people who have is that there is almost a losing sight of self that happens sometimes because you were trying to be and act accordingly to what is expected of you from that space. But what Ebony Janice is sharing and offering to us is that it's actually divine for you to just be who you are and for you to show up authentically and for you to nurture who you are. And so, again, as a queer Black woman, the power in that for other queer Black women to just take that as the message as they're you know engaging or not in a religious or spiritual practice it's just that's a beautiful beautiful takeaway

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:43

yeah amen I agree I agree I wholeheartedly like everything hit me with a ton of bricks but I really like this idea of like sin being a thing that if sin is a thing leaving earth not having been yourself is a grave sin is like you know how liberating that'll be for so many people who are still in this moment, you know, like I said, I brought up Laverne Cox earlier. Like here's this woman that is the pinnacle of what it means to be a trans woman in the celebrity status, right? Like she is the most famous black trans woman in the world. And she's still wrestling with, like, is being okay to be herself in proxy to this, like, white, blonde, blue-eyed, 26-year-old MAGA police officer. And there was some context, additionally, that made that a thing. And what the other girls were saying is, how can we then come out to be ourselves, right? And show up how we need to show up when the person who is the pinnacle of, like, where we aspire to be still feels that way. And so the greatest gift, back to her piece about liberation and wrestling, and ease, the greatest gift we can give other generations of younger Black women, whether they're queer, whether they're cis, whether they're trans, whether they're poor, whether they're rich, is to show them that being themselves is their most divine assignment. What a gift. What a gift. Thank you. We are so grateful. We are so, so, so, so, so grateful. First of all, not to go on a tangent, but it's surreal for me to be sitting right now. Me and Kelly, we line the podcast last year in Martha's Vineyard wrestling with like our quasi bougie-ness of being in Martha's Vineyard talking about the podcast and all that stuff and to be here having such a profound conversation in this place at this time for Black August after seeing Reverend Otis Moss III preach yesterday at the Union Chapel and just feeling like I didn't know this trip was going to be so, you know, was going to fill me up this way but this is just a blessing. So thank you so much. Absolutely. We Where can people find you? How should they be connecting with you? Ebony Janice. I am at Ebony Janice everywhere. E-B-O-N-Y-J-A-N-I-C-E. That's Ebony Janice. And I just kind of aged myself by, you know, you got to say your telephone number and then you got to repeat it again. So that's where I am everywhere. And I actually would say that the most easeful way to connect with me is to subscribe to my newsletter at ebonygenese.com particularly because I really do be you know saying a word or two in that newsletter and I'm a Capricorn I don't love notifications so I'll never spam you ever never I will say anything and get on out your way so my newsletter usually has all the things that's happening right there awesome we'll be sure to share that in the show notes thank you so much for being with us today we really enjoyed this conversation I'm feeling I'm feeling spiritually high right now I know it was the blood I know it You learned another

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:57

church song. Add that to your arsenal, boo. Look, Ebony Janice, I am not a church person. I did not grow up in the church and I've been very vocal about that on the pod throughout season one and as we ease into season two. But I have been sitting here literally leaned in head in my hand kicking my feet like I feel like I've been in church in this episode and so I just appreciate everything and I'm still stuck on you know your initial comments on your name because that's somebody whose name is often misunderstood misspoken easily you know the first question out of people's mouths is do you go by a nickname and it's like no know me for who I am and my name is in this world for a reason And so I just, I've been stuck on that since you said it. And this whole thing has felt spiritual in a beautiful way. So I just, I appreciate that correction from you initially to start us off. And I knew, I knew it. I just, I'm blaming on low blood sugar coming into this recording. I knew it. We've like, like Kendra said, we've talked about your work. I've been a big fan of your work for many, many years now. And I knew it. And I just, You know, don't let me, don't let, catch me out here calling you by anything other than Ebony Janice. Thank you for saying that. I'm just,

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:22

I know we are at the end and we ain't even, I don't even know if we still are. So this is just for me to say this to y'all. Two things. Thank you for saying that because I had this thing, it's just a very womanist thing I'm about to say. Sometimes when, because my background is Christian and that isn't the case anymore and it's, it has been a violent experience in my family in a lot of ways. that when people when I'm talking as actual Ebony Janice and people affirm that it felt like church I feel like when Suge is like see God you know see Paul God love sinners too it made me feel like you know I don't not as not the sinner part but it's that like I want to say to my family sometimes like you don't even see that your ministry would never be able to do this it doesn't make it better or worse. It's that I was called in this time to this. For such a time as this. The other thing that I wanted to say is when y'all was singing, I know it was the blood. It reminded me I had to go do work in Tampa with my Ianifa just last week. I'm a baby priest in a lot of ways. There are things that I've never done before. It was my first time doing my own animal sacrifice in this particular animal. I was singing. I know what's the plan while I was doing it and the most of these women are black American women so they're just like how did you get this way because I my way to God was Jesus Christ and I am not someone who had a theological shift or a religious you know like shift and now nothing from my from my life is not true anymore nigga how I came to God was through Jesus Christ so there are moments where I'm going to be like Jesus and that's not going to change. It just is what it is. So that tickled me. I would just cry baby but I thought I ended on that note. I really was. I know it was blood. I know that's right. Thank you for being here. We hope you get some rest. I know it's night time there. I got another call in a minute but I'm a little jet lagged so it's okay because I'm going to be woke until 2 o'clock in the morning. It's fine. You take good care of yourself. Thank you. Y'all take care. Peace.